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Author Topic: Celator guide lines  (Read 4807 times)

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Offline Callimachus

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Celator guide lines
« on: May 16, 2010, 11:52:45 am »
In another posting on this site, the topic of celater guide lines was touched upon.  Rather than add to that thread, I'll start another one specifically on that topic.  I invite anyone else who has coins showing celator guide lines to post pictures of them here.  I'll start with 2 denarii from the mint of Antioch: an obverse of Elagabalus (RIC 199); and a reverse of Severus Alexander (RIC 263).

Offline maridvnvm

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Re: Celator guide lines
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2010, 12:09:37 pm »

Offline Philoromaos

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Re: Celator guide lines
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2010, 12:26:55 pm »
My Alexander drachm has one faintly visable around the lower half of the reverse.

Adrian

Offline moonmoth

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Re: Celator guide lines
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2010, 02:15:02 pm »
"... A form of twisted symbolical bedsock ... the true purpose of which, as they realised at first glance, would never (alas) be revealed to mankind."

Offline Jochen

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Re: Celator guide lines
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2010, 02:28:34 pm »
Were there outerlines too?

Jochen

Offline Bud Stewart

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Re: Celator guide lines
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2010, 03:42:47 pm »
Very educational thread.  I am new to the world of ancients and I must admit, that prior to yesterday, I would have bee very concerned if I saw these “Celator Guide Lines” on a coin.  Thanks for sharing your examples everyone.  I joined the Forum to learn and I haven't been disappointed.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Celator guide lines
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2010, 05:12:23 pm »
It will be impossible to hold back the tide among collectors, but may I object once more that "celator" does not mean "die engraver" in Latin, so should not be given that meaning in English?

According to Seltman, Masterpieces of Greek Coinage, pp. 8-9, the artists who enjoyed the highest reputation in Greece were those "who worked delicately in precious stones, ivory, gold, silver and bronze," who were called "toreutai" in Greek and "caelatores" in Latin.

These artists were NOT die engravers, but Seltman thinks that some Greek cities employed them, for example Kimon at Syracuse, to engrave their finest dies.

NO ancient source, as far as I am aware, calls a die engraver a "celator". In the Trajanic mint inscriptions, for example, die engravers are called "scalptores" or "signatores", and there is no mention of "caelatores".

The mistake of misinterpreting what Seltman said and thinking that ALL die engravers could be called "celators" apparently goes back to Wayne Sayles, who when founding his magazine for ancient coin collectors in 1987 decided to call it the Celator and adopted the following motto: "The Celator is named for and dedicated to the coin die-engravers of antiquity whose art remains as powerful and appealing today as in their own time."

Since then "celator" has become a very widespread word for "die engraver" among collectors, but few academic or museum numismatists make this mistake!
Curtis Clay

Offline Bud Stewart

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Re: Celator guide lines
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2010, 06:31:34 pm »
Since then "celator" has become a very widespread word for "die engraver" among collectors, but few academic or museum numismatists make this mistake!

As I’ve said, I came here to be educated (and entertained) and once again I'm not disappointed.  Thanks.

Offline Will Hooton

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Re: Celator guide lines
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2010, 06:37:27 pm »
Ditto. I have been here for a while myself on and off, and one learns something everyday. Hitherto, I had always assumed Celator to mean die engraver.

Thanks to Curtis for the correction.

Offline Philoromaos

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Re: Celator guide lines
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2010, 07:00:48 pm »
There is only one god and his name is...... ;)

Offline cmcdon0923

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Re: Celator guide lines
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2010, 08:47:08 pm »
Seems a bit odd that they're only visible on the reverses of all the coins submitted above......

Offline Bud Stewart

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Re: Celator guide lines
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2010, 09:58:53 pm »
The obverse of Callimachus' Elagabalus (RIC 199) has an engraver's mark

Offline Callimachus

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Re: Celator guide lines
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2010, 10:32:32 pm »
I fail to see an engraver's mark here other than the celator's -- or as Curtis pointed out,  scalptores' -- guideline.  If you mean the reddish brown blob after the O, that is a bit of hard shiny corrosion of some sort that I don't dare scrape off.

Offline slokind

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Re: Celator guide lines
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2010, 10:49:55 pm »
Yes, thank you, Curtis; I couldn't bring myself to face this old chestnut again.
Just consider, I only opened this thread because I thought it would contain Instructions for Contributors for Celator, the unhappily named journal.
The lesson to be learned is, if you aren't a philologist, or haven't done any research on a word's usage, DON'T USE IT.  What is wrong with calling the man a die engraver?   And if some masters of caelatura sometimes were hired by mints for a special issue, that doesn't affect the question.
Pat L.

Offline Bud Stewart

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Re: Celator guide lines
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2010, 06:18:42 am »
Perhaps now ?  ;)

Offline moonmoth

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Re: Celator guide lines
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2010, 02:05:18 pm »
Yes, thank you, Curtis; I couldn't bring myself to face this old chestnut again.
Just consider, I only opened this thread because I thought it would contain Instructions for Contributors for Celator, the unhappily named journal.
The lesson to be learned is, if you aren't a philologist, or haven't done any research on a word's usage, DON'T USE IT.  What is wrong with calling the man a die engraver?   And if some masters of caelatura sometimes were hired by mints for a special issue, that doesn't affect the question.
Pat L.

Words that relate to a particular area of interest or study are more than just useful jargon - their use indicates a togetherness, joint endeavour, membership of a group, perhaps a step towards validation.  So the word in question becomes widely used in the archaeonumisphere. (*)

Bill

(*) If I make a word up, may I be excused from researching it?  Even if it's ugly?
"... A form of twisted symbolical bedsock ... the true purpose of which, as they realised at first glance, would never (alas) be revealed to mankind."

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Celator guide lines
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2010, 04:02:02 pm »
Even scholars fall into the trap of using words just because they're common currency. We're all human, after all. This one's a modern usage though, and it's a blatant anachronism. So I'm sticking with 'engraver' for safety!
Robert Brenchley

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Offline Hydatius

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Re: Celator guide lines
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2010, 09:10:51 pm »
Curtis is quite right. I had never heard of the word except as the title of the journal before I joined this group.

Richard
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Offline mihali84

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Re: Celator guide lines
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2010, 07:57:29 pm »
The reverse of my newest addition, Philip III drachm, has what seems to be an engraver's guideline, rather than being a border.
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