My East Celtic coins

[berserker]

Hi all,

The next celtic coin from my collection a Lysimachos-head type.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2857&pos=31

This coin found near Sümeg, Hungary (thanks the information for the seller.)
Similar coins at Auctions: Kurpfalzerische Münzhandlung 23 (1982) Nr.5; Giessener Münzhandlung 141, (2005), Nr.22;  Gemini I Auction (Closed Jan 11-12, 2005); Hauck & Aufhäuser, Auktion 19, (21-22/3/2006), Nr.11; Künker auction 158 (28 September 2009), LOT 24.
AR: 11.70 - 12.84gms

It's not really clear for me why Pink put this coin on the list to type Ostgruppe-Transylvania. Allen describes as NE-Hungary / S-Slovakia type and I think that the latter is unlikely. Pink deduced from Lysimachos goldstater finds [found hoards: valley of Strigy (Streiu) river, Hátszeg (Hateg), etc.] the found similar obverse silver coins in Transylvania, although these gold coins weren’t in circulation neither celtic, nor dacian areas, but catch from Thrace, for example from Callatis, what was raided by Dacians.
That is fact, several Lysimachos obverse silver coins found in Transylvania, but this coin’s reverse reminds me to the ostnoricer Kroisbacher mit Reiterstumpf type (see OTA 469-6, Demski 1393), similar the powerful horse-image, the gallopping legs of horse, and the forward-looking crested rider, although the Kroisbacher’s bolt torque pattern is not included.
This coin found at Sümeg oppidum (if it was that, today a middleage castle), in the North of the Balaton lake, Hungary. A similar found at Göttweig (near Krems an der Donau, Austria, today an Abbey).
There’s no trace the Dacian conquest in Transdanubia (Pannonia) around 50 BC, even not sure that the Dacians have been crossed the Danube somewhere between Dunaszekcső and Aquincum (but at Aquincum the newly settled Eravisci escaped from the Dacians, left their villages near Pest and went to the opposite bank of the river built oppidum – today the Citadella in Gellért hill of Buda). The conquerors followed the valley of Danube towards the Boii capital, Bratislava, what later destroyed.
The Transdanubian found-site also can indicate that although the coin minted in Transylvania and essentially used there, but the Celt tribes (Teurisci and Anarti) could brought with them who escaped from Dacian conquerors to the West. This may justify the Celtic cemetery found in the upper Tisza (eg. Szaniszló and Piskolt) and several Transdanubian Iron Age cemetery finds identity, at least according to dr. John Németi, the Museum of Nagykároly (Carei, Romania) retired historian and researcher, who is this theory supported by a number of artifacts (but not with coins).
It can not be ruled out completely that this coin went by way of trade to Transdanubia, because a single coin find does not prove almost anything on its use and origin.

[berserker]

Hi all,

An interesting scyphate-like tetradrachm is also in my East Celtic coin collection, so I will show this now.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2857&pos=32

The scyphate tetradrahms have 4 groups in Pink catalog: Zeus head, Heracles head, Artemis bust and Bartkranzavers. All of them found mainly at Transylvania near the valley of Maros river, and probably the here lived tribes minted this coins from the also here mined copper. My scyphate coin belongs to BARTKRANZAVERS (= wreath beard) group (according to Pink), but in Göbl catalog this is a Wächsender Durchmesser (= increasing diameter) type, and Costial also use this name.
At first sight it’s hard enough to decise, this is a Zeus head or a Hercules head imitation. The reverse could help: in the LaTour catalog there’s a normal obverse coin draw (no. 9813) with the same reverse like this, and that is synonymous with a Zeus head. So, if we accept this idea for coin evolution or transfer, this coin also show a stilized Zeus head, with also stilized horse image. Then we agree with Allen, who describes as a Zeus head, and not with Pink and Göbl, who describe as a Hercules head.
Unfortunately can’t seen the typical S with points in hair on my coin, but that is there (see on the second LaTour draw-no.9608). The other typical „trade marks” are: stylized lock of hair hanging in front of the eyes, the two lines mouth, the submarginal in frame on the neck, and the stylized wreath leaves.
Preda call it Toc-Cherelus type, after the two village, where most of this type found. (46 pieces found at Toc in 1840; at Cherelus 76 pieces found in 1900, 24 pieces in 1901 and 16 pieces in 1910; 12 pieces found at Turda in 1908.)
Epicentre: the valley of the Maros river
Billon or AE: 7.53 – 13.43 gms  /  diameter: 28.8-35.0 mm

Regards, Mike

[berserker]

Hi all,

The next coin from my East Celtic coin collection, what I'd like to show, also belongs to the BARTKRANZAVERS type

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2857&pos=33

In Pink catalog this coin belongs to the group of Herakleskopf, at Göbl also Herakleskopf but verwilderung und wachsender Durchmesser (=became wild and increasing diameter) category.
Obverse has also typical style details: strong brokenline-like nose and before the S-like motif, beardless face, the strongly stylized lion skin and at neck a torque imitation (?). The reverse ’s horse is remind to the Kinnlosen type (OTA244) mainly the head and legs, except the rider, what has an interesting style head with point. The ponytail is also interesting and non-series. The mints are in perlrand on the most of east celtic scyphate coins.
The S-form with a hook is probably refer to Teutan or Teutat god, who was the Lord of the Tribe. Teutat is rolling through the sun-wheel on the sky every day and watch from the top to the tribe. After a busy day he rests at cool sources and refreshing yourself there. He is often represented with wheel (this is the symbol of the sun-wheel), and sometimes with nine S-shaped hook. This is (the 3x3) the infinity symbol in celt mythology. The S-shaped hook together the torque imitation in a coin probably means the increasing richness.
This suppose may confirm the large mint and the large number found together in hoards, but is somehow contradict the matter of coin is AE and not AR
This type found mainly in the valley of the Maros river, epicentres are in Alba and Hunedoara County, Romania.
Large hoard found near Szászváros (today Orastie) with 395 pieces in 1801, on the mount of Cetatea near Kudsir (today Cugir) found 200 pieces in 1868, at Temesd (today Temesesti) found 135 pieces in 1916, about 100 pieces found at the beautiful (old hungarian) name village: Felsőszálláspatak (today Salasu-de-sus), and 12 pieces at Torda (today Turda). According to my knowledge this scyphate type is scarce at auctions, most of found coins are in Museums.
Billon or AE: 7.78 – 13.63 g  /  Diameter: 28.8-36.8 mm 

[And allow me a note. Sorry for the inscribtions of village name in hungarian, but these names are in old catalogs, and these villages had hungarian names for centuries. Today these not belong to mangled Hungary.]

Regards, Mike

[berserker]

Hi all,

I continue to show my East Celtic coins with a recently found AR tetradrachm

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2857&pos=34

This high relief coin found at Csongrád, where the Körös river flows to the Tisza. Similar type weights are  9.23-13.83gms. The mint is unknown.

The Celts in the Great Hungarian Plains
Towards the end of the IV century BC the Celtic groups eastwards expansion of the northern edge of the Great Plains, but a lasting settlement was followed only after the invasion of Thrace and Greece. The small groups of Celts from Transdanubia (Pannonia) gradually settled down in the Great Plains. The material culture of the settlers take over the living here population of "Scythian" culture in a short time, and the two communities of different origins are inextricably mixed up during a few generations. This is one of the reason why is difficult to identify the Celts in the Great Plains.
The first half of the third century the La Tène cemetery series will appear throughout in East-Hungary: for example, Jászberény Cserőhalom, Gyoma-Egei-halom, Kőrösszegapáti, Békéssámson-Erdőháti-halom, etc. Last year the archeologists found a Celtic village and a cemetery with 15 graves near Szeged-Kiskundorozsma, what is used in the second century BC. The border of Hódmezővásárhely lived Celts have an important relic, a cemetery where 16 graves was found with both cremation and sleketon ritual buried, and one of the warrior had a sword and a swordchain. At Mártély the outskirts of a lonely woman richly jeweled tomb reveals about the magnificent dress of the high society of the new conquerors. Near Szentes town several Celtic artifacts found at villages: from Berekhát, Besenyőhalom, Kórógy-shore, Magyartés, Magyartés-Gyapjaspart, Nagyhegy and Szeder-telep.
There's an interesting Celtic site at Muhi-Kocsmadomb, where the Celts buried their deads to near an early Scythian necropolis, while others (Békéssámson, Gyoma, Kistokaj) some "Celtic-Scythian" mixture graves was found and registered. Namely as in the North-Balkans, we can be concluded the Celtic immigrants and the Scythian indigenous was peaceful coexistence and mixing. This is also a new argument for the interpretation: expansion of the Celts was a peaceful colonization process.
All of this is an important milestone in the history of Celtic archaeological exploration in Hungary, due to the excavates before motorway buildings. The above summary is confirmed by the cemetery analisys what did at the border of Sajópetri found settlement from the third century BC. Next to the Celtic artifacts the type of Scythian material was discovered in La Tène houses. In addition, it was found that the establishment of the Celtic site selection was an important aspect of the ores (iron and copper) access and the on-site processing. And perhaps this is the other reason, why was so scarce the Celtic settlement in the Great Plains, where still the stone is rare.

Most of these villages Celtic name are not known, so the today name (or sometimes the later Roman city name) are mentioned in the historical works.

Regards, Mike

[berserkrro]

I would add here that C. Preda ("Monedele geto dacilor - Geto-dacians coins") is considering "Toc Cherelus" and "Radulesti Hunedoara" (the two before the last type) types as being the typical geto-dacian coins for Transylvania. Nowhere in the celtic world one will find such big module (around 30 to 34 mm) and schyphate shape in the same time. Moreover, these types seems to be inspired (for the symbolic part at least) from Macedonia Prima coins (the type Petelea - not yet illustrated here) and Thasos coins. They belong to the late period of geto-dacian coinage when celts were not anymore the leading population (150 to 50 B.C) in that area.
For Toc-Cherelus, an important hoard was found in 1964 in Almas - Arad county - 200 pcs. and in 1966 in Fenis (Arad) another hoard of 127 coins.
For Radulesti Hunedoara one of the most important hoards was found in Radulesti in 1944 - 245 pcs. The silver content varies between 17-28 %. Also "S" form was used by dacians too (you can see a dacian shield from Trajan's column below) and also dacians used the solar sign under different forms (spiral, wheel, circle etc) - the best known monument related to solar sign is the stone solar circle from Sarmisegetuza Regia (close to the region the hoards were discovered).
Now related to Salasu de sus (or Felsőszálláspatak as you like to name it), in romanian "Salasu de sus" sounds great too (Upper dwelling). Moreover it was the residence and property of a romanian cneaz - Cândrea - from a very old wallachian family, since XV-th century. Do you have specimens of these two types? Best regards!

[berserker]

Dear Berserkrro,
Thank you the added information. As I mentioned earlier I have no the Preda book (it’s hard enough to acquire in Hungary), what need to describe exactly the Transylvanian found scyphate coins. Thanks for the inform for „newly” found hoards, though I made signs on my map either Almas, or Fenis, even Radulesti, too.
The S form is intesting in dacian shields, I didn’t watch this earlier, and this is perhaps one of the evidence: wasn’t just trade connections between nations, but also religional or cultural effects.
Of course, the name of that village sounds great too in romanian, and the names means the same. But it seems we didn’ learning from the same historical books.
Well, this topic is about celtic (and geto-dacian, thracian, and other east europen nations) coins, not the middle age history. That ruins of castle of Salasu de Sus probably was a geto-dacian strenghold before the roman times, and the here found scyphates tell about ancient peoples.

Regards, Mike

[berserkrro]

Hi Mike, sure the topic is very interesting and not about history, I was just responding to your note Anyway if you feel the need to ask me (on PM or here) anything related to infos from C. Preda book, I encourage you to do it. I have the book and I know that is a very scarce one. Moreover I have a supplement for this book (from '96) which may bring up some new info about hoards (I'll take a look later). Best regards!

[berserker]

Hi all,

The next East Celtic coin from my collection is a Tulghies subtype

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2857&pos=35

In NW -Transylvania found a hoard at Tulghies, near the Iadara or Tulghies River. The hoard included 229 pcs almost same coins, what Preda named Tulghies Miresu Mare type. The scrutinized hoard had 12 subtype of the Tulghies, and the most known subtype is with Audoleon monogram (OTA 429). In 1967 archaeologists found another Dacian treasure at Silindia (near the Cigher River, Arad County, Romania) dating from the 3rd century BC, considerated one of the most important treasures found in Romania. This newly found hoard also contained this type of coins. (Thanks for my collector-mate, Berserkrro these information).

Pink earlier listed the Preda’s Tulghies type to the Western group, although this type found in Galishegy (Munkács near the Latorca River, today Ukraina) (Desewffy 326), but also found near Győr, Hungary (ref: Numizmatikai Közlöny 1913). The Kostial catalog number is 723 with the name Audoleonmonogram, and there are the number1343-1348 coins in Dembski catalog.
While I describe this is only fear, my coin is a scarcer subtype with lambda sign or legend, and the Tulghies hoard had 16 pcs, the Silindia hoard had 42 pcs coins as mine, and probably the OTA 423 ("Mit Arabeskenlocke / Y auf Postament") (and Dembski 1341) coin is similar, too. The obverse is a typical Zeus head, what we can see on Audoleon type East Celtic coins. The reverse rider left, holding a two-branch stick, and above the ’lambda’ sign; and there are cuts. Sometimes these cuts coins used at funerals putting next to the deceased, and the edge cut was for genuineness.

At this point let’s see what can means these symbols on reverse.
Julius Caesar in his De Bello Gallico said that "Mercury" was the god most revered in Gaul. The iconography of Gaulish Mercury (who was Lug or Lugus, Lugos) includes birds, particularly ravens and the cock; horses; the tree of life; dogs or wolves; etc. The sacred animal of Lug was the raven. Generally he represented as a rider commander with a long rod on end sitting bird – a rawen, or simply stick to the sitting bird. The cult of Lug was well known in the whole Celtic world and in the Carpathian Basin, too, even as the following coindraws show in Transylvania, as well. Because with the help of Lug could get a lot of treasure, so later, also respected the traders.
The rider on my coin reverse can connect to the Lug cult, if we accept the above lambda sign is a stilized bird: this can not be ruled out with certainty.  The two-branch stick is also on the Tulghies main type rider hand.
AR: 12.27-13.60gms

Regards, Mike

[berserker]

Hi all,

I got a nice little celtic coin, and I'd like to show following my posts about celtic coins:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2857&pos=36

This coin found: Baranya County, Hungary, probably at Dunaszekcső.
Other documented found of this type: CROATIE Vörösmart (Zmajevac) 1 pcs, and Sisak 1 pcs;
SERBIE Novi-Banovci 6 pcs, and Sirmium (Sremska-Mitrovica) also 6 pcs.
AR: 0.2 - 0.82 gms.
The realistic horse draw suggest me this coin probably was struck earlier than the well-known Kapostaler bronze (billon) coins.

Regards, Mike

[berserker]

Hi all,
The next coin from my collection is the Huşi-Vovrieşti type

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2857&pos=38

This coin found Tolna County, Hungary.

The so-called Husi-Vovrieşti type coins (by Preda) are the most frequently numbers what appear in hoards and single founds in the Siret and Prut river valley (Moldova, Romania). The second half of 3rd century BC this region was especially the Bastarnae tribe homeland between the eastern Carpathian Mountains and the Dnieper River, so Husi-Vovrieşti type coins also attributed to them.
As can be seen in the attached map, the Husi-Vovrieşti coins were in common use in the Carpathian Basin many parts were also found such models. The numismatic writers explain with historical events the dispersion of coins, not only with trade. Philip V makedon ruler have gone off to Rome relations around 184 BC, and he persuaded the Bastarnae leaders to emigrate to Dardania (southern Kosovo/Skopje region). The ruler's plans included a later launched attack against Rome from Dardania, in which the tribe have played a role. The Bastarnae departure was away because of the leaders’ hesitate; finally when they started in 179 BC, Philip V had already died, and the contract of 60 thousand warriors, only half done.
Philip's son, Perseus no longer insisted on his father's plans, so the negotiations with Bastarnae failed, and considerably less than the amount received in the past commission. Despite this, the migrants settled in Dardania and concluded an alliance with Scordisci, in a war against the tribes of the Dardani. However, the Scordisci defeated in the winter of 176-175 BC, so the Bastarnae expelled and displaced to their original land. Perseus promised a new offer to the migratory tribe near the Macedonian border in 168 BC, but the negotiations were unsuccessful again and the Bastarnae returned to their homes devastating and plundering.
No doubt that the influx of Huşi-Vovrieşti coins to Scordisci area belongs to Bastarnae tribe, and his history between 179-175 and 168 BC. According to ancient writers the Scordisci helped the Bastarnae’ three years adventure, which services are likely to pay such coins.
AR: 12.53-16.67gms
Many coins of Husi-Vovrieşti type have a countermark(s), the variations of these countemarks can be seen the other picture, what is from the Preda book.

[berserkrro]

The biggest hoard (125 coins) was found in 1960 in Vovriesti (Vaslui county). Bastarnae ceramic is found in settlements often mixed with geto-dacian one and after they dissapeared (by moving), geto-dacians recovered their territories but this type was not struck anymore. So this type is most probably celtic. Related to the test cut, there are more theories, from a religious purpose (or a funerary custom) to a simple metal testing. The last opinion would also explain multiple cuts after an innitial one (after a patina would have covered the first cut).

[berserker]

Hi all,

I've got another east celtic coin, so I share this Zick-zack gruppe type

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2857&pos=39

This coin obverse has a different Zeus head, than usual in others, and there’s both left and right face.  Reverse rider is an imitation of helmeted warrior, and the „legend” is ΠΛΛΛ.

Regards, Mike

[berserker]

Hi all,
The next type of my East Celtic coin is a modified Baumreiter:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2857&pos=40

At first let's see the Baumreiter type (OTA Gőbl 129; Preda: Criseni-Berchies type; LaTour9782, etc.). Laureate head of Zeus right, characterized strong brows than other Sirmium types as well, S-like ornament in hair / Helmeted horseman left with long crest ending in ring, holding branch in raised right hand, small animal in field before horse, leaf ornament on ground between legs.
The change affects both side of my coin, the head of Zeus become strongly stilized on obverse, emphasizing the strong eyebrows and the S-shaped lock. The back rider can only indicate the points, as well as the animal-sign before the horse.
Other interesting aspects on the front panel is the S-shaped motif. Previously, it was already mentioned that this pattern is Celtic or Dacian origin (see the Bartkranzavers type and the Berserkrro reply). Neither of them can clearly say, if we see the next 2 picture of the Trajan column. On first a siege of a Roman fort by Dacians, where a Roman soldier (who was probably Celtic origin) holds an S-shape shield, but the second picture shows a Dacian horseman who also holds like that. So, I think the S-shaped motif is a widespread pattern in South and East areas from Pannonia.
The documented founds are Serbie (2 pcs) et Bistrita-Nasaud County in Romania (2 pieces) by Pink.
AR: 9.03-14.07gms; 21-28mm;

Regards, Mike

[berserker]

Hi all,

I continue the presentation of my east celtic coins.
At first a celtic coin what I won on my 50th birthday, so it's a memorable coin to me.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2857&pos=41

The ORNAMENTREITER type coins is scarcer than other celtic, and appeared mainly at auctions:
Auktionshaus H. D. Rauch GmbH, Mail Bid Sale 11 (12.09.2006) LOT124, LOT125; Auction 84 (13.05.2009) LOT14; 7th E-Auction 2010, (19.03.2010) LOT8 -> this coin;
Typical weights are 10.48 - 11.28 gms; the mint epicentre was in Voïvodina (Serbia), where lived the Amantini or Scordisci tribe.

The next coin is a BUCKELAVERS type (or Velky Bisterec type at Kolnikova).

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2857&pos=42

These tetradrachms belong to the Cotini tribe and found them many places in the north of Carpathian Basin.
The mint epicentre was Spis & Zilina, North Slovakia.

Regards, Mike

[berserker]

Hi all,
Today I'd like to show 2 unique little coins.
The first a Pegasos type obol, what I wrote about earlier, but this piece shows the obverse better condition.
On the basis of the diadem or laureate and the beardless face this little silver coin belongs to the mint of Boier.
It was found also near Komárom, Hungary as the earlier similar type.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2857&pos=43

The next AR obol or fraction, what I didn't found any catalog, and I think it's an unique.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2857&pos=44

The horse is similar to dembski 943 tetradrachm (freie samobor/S-typen) or perhaps dembski 944 but not both side horse.  This coin found an unknown place at the territory of Pannonia.

Regards,
Mike

[berserker]

Hi all,
The next type from my east celtic collection is a BANATER type tetradrachm.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2857&pos=45

This coin type mint was probably the BANAT historical territory, today Caras-Severin County in Romania.
Most of these coins shows the reverse rider without palmbranch, but sometimes appear this symbol, as in the original Philip II. tetradrachms.

[berserker]

The origin of the next celtic (dakish) tetradrahm is from the Carpathian Mountain.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2857&pos=46

This coin is belongs to The Audoleon group celtic coins and has a typical B-shape crescent on the reverse rider. In PREDA book can be seen on the Carte fig. 9: Tonciu with B type, and the mint epicentre was probably in   Bistrita-Nasaud County, Romania.
In Pink book the no. 309-310 show also this coin type with name "mit eingerolltem Helmschweif".
The found coins weights are: 8.95-12.17gms

[berserker]

My next celtic coin also belongs to Audoleon group.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2857&pos=47

According to Pink this type is a new reverse of Audoleon group, because seen a Π letter above the crescent.
These type coins found near Matra Mountain, so this is a nordic type of Carpathian basin
Today these types are appeared mainly in auctions: A. Tkalec AG Auction 2002 (18.02.2002) Lot 8; Auktionshaus H. D. Rauch GmbH Auction 76 (17.10.2005) Lot 128; Auction 79 (17.11.2006) Auction 82 (23.04.2008) Lot11; Lot 2032; Auction 84 (13.05.2009) Lot 9;
The documented found coins weights are: 12.75 – 13.63gms, and diameter 19-23 mm
My coin found near Egyházasdengeleg, where found an important celtic coin hoard earlier.

[The name of Egyházasdengeleg only from 1905, Dengeleg was the name in the past thousand years. This name, which is of Slavic origin, means a red grape types. The first name could get of the stream, even the conquering Hungarians, whose vineyards stand for the stream coast.
Celts lived in the village in the third century BC. The celtic coin hoard, which is the largest of its kind in the country (80 coins), and it has 11 pieces Audeleontos type, with the triskeles countermark is below the belly of horse on the reverse of the coin (Göbl OTA 402).]

[berserker]

Hi all,
In the middle of last month I was in the 2ND NUMISMATA in Vienna, where I found some interesting celtic coins.

One of them an AR scyphate tetradrachm – HERAKLESKOPF type.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2857&pos=48

Kostial and Dembski describe as a „Scyphat mit Herakleskopf”;
These types weight are: 6.11 - 15.34gms, diameter: 24-28mm.

The next a Celtic AR Fraction – kleinsilber Typ Manching 2, what minted the Vindeliker tribe.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2857&pos=49

The minted area of these coins is Manching, so this coin is a middle celtic product.
The obverse is "Kopf n. l. mit gescheitelter Haarkalotte, Scheitelpunkt, Halsansatz bogenförmig mit spitzen Enden"

And another Celtic AR Fraction a "Büschelquinar" also in middle celtic area.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2857&pos=50

This type is "Büschelquinar der nordhelvetischen Gruppe nach 50 v.Chr."

Regards, Mike

[berserkrro]

Hi Mike. I envy you for the first one Is (according to Preda) the Radulesti-Hunedoara type (discussed earlier) I attach a picture from Preda for more info: