Poll: artificial patina

[JRoME]

I have a Nero sesterius that is heavily cleaned down to the metal with some pitting.  You can read the entire legend on the obverse but its hard to see.  My question is would you or do you apply artificial patina to a coin in your private collection to make it more legible or just to increase its appeal?  I am not selling this coin so it's not a question of deception.  Do you think this is normal practice or am I a monster for considering it?

[Dino]

Apart from the objections you will hear from those who think it's wrong to ever repatinate, there can be a practical problem to repatinating a coin with pitting... it looks unnatural.  If you look at the patina on coins, it's not necessarily uniform and in places where the coin is damaged, you are absolutely going to see differences in the patina.

So, if you repatinate, you going to wind up with a uniform patina on a coin that shouldn't have a uniform patina.

Having said all that, I once bought an uncleaned lot that had a coin in it that was completely stripped.  It was also pitted.  I repatinated.   Don't really like the result, but I think it still looks better that what it looked like before.  I don't have a before shot, but here's the after.

Not that attractive...

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-35964

[JRoME]

This is the coin I was speaking of.  I know its not a great example but it was within my budget and I really liked the portrait.  I was thinking of just a little patina brushed into the legend to make it easier to read.

[romeo]

i see nothing wrong with it for your own collection, after all its YOUR collection, and your right it can improve the look of a coin. personally i would rather not but sometimes i cant afford a really good example so i buy a cheaper coin and improve it myself. i think there are far worse crimes you can do to coins than reapplying patina.

[larry c]

I have & will use patina products, but if your not in a hurry
why not just set it outside for awhile. Cool nights, sunny day,
a little rain will retone it naturally. If your still not happy with it
you can always dip it in chemicals later.

[JRoME]

I have & will use patina products, but if your not in a hurry
why not just set it outside for awhile. Cool nights, sunny day,
a little rain will retone it naturally. If your still not happy with it
you can always dip it in chemicals later.

Hmmm never thought of that.  Besides the threat of being stolen are there any downsides or potential hazards to this?

[larry c]

I use a heavy corning dish so the wind doesn't flip it ( or the cat)
and set them out on the patio. Sun & rain have change some bare
metal greeks to a nice chocolate brown. I live in a Texas metro area,
with ozone alerts and 100+ days so it doesn't take all that long.
Same process it's been thru for 1700+ years while buried in the dirt.
 

[JRoME]

Thanks, Larry.  I live in MA so the weather is much different.  I think I may try it out with a couple of test coins first.

For those of you who believe repatinization (is that a word?) is taboo would you consider this an artificial method?

[Jay GT4]

You could also just put it on the window sill in your kitchen.  It is amazing how quickly the sun and pollution works.  I have done this to a few of the very first coins I got, when I didn't know any better and I was buying coins just based on price and ruler. I'm very happy how they have toned darker and they are definately more pleasing to look at then bare metal.  At least now I know better!

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with letting it tone naturally.  I'm also not against fake patina as long as it is disclosed when selling.  Search for my "Poor Germanicus" thread about fake patina on a rare coin!

[JRoME]

That was a great thread, thanks.  It answered some other questions I had about Renwax too.  Do you still Wax all of your coins for preservation? Sometimes I will just leave a little olive oil on a coin that looks super dry thinking it may help preserve it and they look better too. 

[Jay GT4]

I don't wax all of my coins but the ones that have broken or chipped patina or that look "dry" or pitted I will put a dab on.  I think the olive oil would do the same thing, and I believe it will darken the coin over time.

[JRoME]

I don't wax all of my coins but the ones that have broken or chipped patina or that look "dry" or pitted I will put a dab on.  I think the olive oil would do the same thing, and I believe it will darken the coin over time.

True.  When I got my first uncleaned coins I put them all right into the oil because that's what the seller's instructions said.  Almost all of those coins are now dark, I'm talking like 200 coins! today I treat every coin different although I still have a lot to learn.

[Robert_Brenchley]

I use Dellers on anything with harsh metal showing through, but that's as far as I go.

[JRoME]

I saw another thread where Basemetal says "If for your personal collection you just must, absolutely, positively MUST have a coin of a given color and uniformness, I suggest you spray paint it one of the many colors of green or other colors available in any hardware store. It's easily removable if you decide on a different motif later.   Sounds absurd, doesn't it?  But those who re-patinize a coin and don't say so when they offer it for sale, or when someone looks at and admires it without knowing this fact,  are doing just that except in a more elaborate way."

Is he really suggesting spray paint or is he trying to demonstrate how absurd he believes repatinizing is?

Added later:  Okay after reading that statement again I see he is obviously not really suggesting spraypaint.

[slokind]

It depends on how much you hate metals.  It robs the surfaces of all subtleties.  Sometimes, besides, it clogs all the finest details both of engraving and of preservation.  It's like putting varnish stain on Hepplewhite or Louis XV.  Pat L.

[Dino]

It robs the surfaces of all subtleties.  Sometimes, besides, it clogs all the finest details both of engraving and of preservation.  It's like putting varnish stain on Hepplewhite or Louis XV.  Pat L.

Sorry, I'm missing something.  What is the "it" there, the Dellars, the olive oil or the wax?  I assume it's not the spray paint as I think that was a joke.

[slokind]

It goes without saying that spraypainting was meant as a joke.  And, of course, neither olive oil soaks nor a bit of RenWax is meant as re-patination.  And, of course, in keeping with the heading of the poll, the antecedent of 'it' is re-patination.  There is Dellars and something referred to as Jax.  I also have seen coins that look as if they have been enameled green or brown, with a surface that plainly is not natural patina, but painted on them (like, possibly, spraying them), which is not what is meant usually by re-patination.  Your remonstrations sound like House of Representatives (or House of Commons) attempts to demolish a plain assertion by diverting, diluting, dismissing, or otherwise deriding.  Re-patination is a chemical treatment to make a stripped or over-cleaned coin a more merchandisable color.  Simply putting a silver coin into a carton of eggs is phony, of course, too.  Putting a bronze on a window sill is phony, of course, not quite like the work of ages, but I wouldn't call it re-patination.  I don't know whether it is Jax or Dellars that leaves some deposit in fine details, or both of them.  Re-patinated coins quite often are the color of wartime imitation milk chocolate or imitation jade made of plastic.
Having to handle such coins is bad enough; don't expect me actually to have purchased any of the products.  Re-patination is one of the crosses one must bear if one buys study coins in the interest of completeness.  Anything I can remove with acetone isn't quite so bad, but most nowadays don't respond.  Pat L.
By the way, the word is SACRILEGIOUS.  The other spelling is not a word.  Either way, it's the wrong idea.  It is not a question of sacred laws or of anything religious.  Still, no person today who has respect for coins or other antiquities would do it.
Thank you for correcting spelling.  I keep the CD version of Webster's Collegiate on my desktop and use it several times a day.

[JRoME]

By the way, the word is SACRILEGIOUS.  The other spelling is not a word.  Either way, it's the wrong idea.  It is not a question of sacred laws or of anything religious.  Still, no person today who has respect for coins or other antiquities would do it.

Thanks for the correction.  I should know better than to use Google as a spell checker so  I'll fix it now and hopefully save some face..  The  choice of words was not a mistake though.  I was not seriously comparing fake patina to an orgy in church or such but figured some would think it was just as bad.  A poor attempt at humor I guess.

I guess i am a little surprised at how polarizing this issue is.  I thought it would be a landslide one way or the other and my choice would be easily made.  With so many people I respect falling on both sides of the fence there will be a lot of hard thinking  about what to do next.   I do wonder if the people who believe it is never okay to change a coin's appearance also feel it is a bad idea to let amateurs all over the world clean coins in the first place since so many are ruined in the process.

[Dino]

Pat-

With all due respect, I think your previous post is a bit harsh.

It goes without saying that spraypainting was meant as a joke.  And, of course, neither olive oil soaks nor a bit of RenWax is meant as re-patination.  And, of course, in keeping with the heading of the poll, the antecedent of 'it' is re-patination.  There is Dellars and something referred to as Jax.  I also have seen coins that look as if they have been enameled green or brown, with a surface that plainly is not natural patina, but painted on them (like, possibly, spraying them), which is not what is meant usually by re-patination. 

Ah. In the context of the conversation occurring just before your post, the "it" was unclear.

Your remonstrations sound like House of Representatives (or House of Commons) attempts to demolish a plain assertion by diverting, diluting, dismissing, or otherwise deriding.

I'm not sure I saw remonstrations in the thread above your post.  I saw various people expressing opinions and a few facts relating to things they had done with coins.  I certainly saw no derision of other's opinions in those posts above yours.

By the way, the word is SACRILEGIOUS.  The other spelling is not a word.  Either way, it's the wrong idea.  It is not a question of sacred laws or of anything religious.  Still, no person today who has respect for coins or other antiquities would do it.

I'm not sure the dig on the spelling of a word is appropriate.  I don't spell-check when posting on a board and I'm assuming the author of this thread didn't either.  I don't know if it was a slip of the fingers or not, but why make such a point? 

Moreover, I'm not sure that the dig on the alleged misuse of the term sacrilegious is necessary or even correct. Sacrilege is the violation of something someone holds sacred.  There are many things that some people hold sacred that are not religious in nature.  In any event, I think we all know what was meant, so I really do not understand the attack.  We simply have a collector asking for the opinions of other collectors.

Finally, I also don't think it's appropriate to suggest that those who hold a different opinion with respect to the issue of repatination lack respect for coins or antiquities.  Almost two thirds [over 2/3 as of 4/16] of those voting so far have indicated that there are at least some circumstances where they would consider repatination.  I, as a new collector, have repatinated a coin that had been stripped by someone before it got to me.  I can assure you that I do not disrespect coins or antiquities. 

[Dino]

I do wonder if the people who believe it is never okay to change a coin's appearance also feel it is a bad idea to let amateurs all over the world clean coins in the first place since so many are ruined in the process.

A very good question.

[JRoME]

I do wonder if the people who believe it is never okay to change a coin's appearance also feel it is a bad idea to let amateurs all over the world clean coins in the first place since so many are ruined in the process.

A very good question.

I also wonder how many of the same people make money selling these coins to amateurs and whether or not these coins would be better off left in the ground according to their stance?  Maybe that would be a more enlightening poll.

I can also see it from the other side because even if I use artificial means to enhance a coin in my private collection, at some point these coins will be passed on to my son who may sell them unknowing that they are not in their original condition.

I'm not trying to dig on people and I'm not even taking a side, just asking a question and maybe playing the devil's advocate a bit. 

[DruMAX]

Its a very common practice. I prefer the coins I buy not to have artificial patina...in fact I have quite a few coins that have been cleaned down to the metal and I still find them attractive. Like this one:



I would rather just get a stripped coin or a natural patina than artificial.

I say...to each his own...if it is your coin, you own it, do as you wish. I dont worry about who will end up with my coins when I die...collecting is purely a personal hobby for me, my child will not have to worry about what to do with my coins when I pass, I have arranged for them to be taken care of in other ways. So many people establish what they think is right in regards to coins and then expect others to follow or they are wrong but in truth, there are many different valid schools of though on ever aspect of coins past and present.

But the short answer is, natural patina...if you can save the patina...I prefer the metal over fake patina.

[Robert_Brenchley]

That's not actually stripped to the metal though. It's got a microscopically thin layer of copper compounds over it, which I agree makes it quite attractive. If it was stripped to raw copper or brass, I bet you wouldn't be quite so happy! That's the situation where I Dellerise a coin.

[DruMAX]

well, it might have a thin layer of copper compounds, and it certainly isn't that pinkish copper color...but when under a light it is very reflective and shines. I have quite a few other coins that are metallic like this one...or pinkish. I still would not darken them...it will happen in time on its own me thinks. Also, these coin I often get cheaper which is a plus.

I bought this one from forum:



obviously a coin, IMO, whose patina has been stripped revealing damage the corrosion did to the metal...all the same, its fine as it is and I love the portrait...I would not try to cover it up or darken it.

This is just personal taste and opinion...I dont look for people to conform to my way of thinking...its their coins, their hobby, they need to approach it in the way that gives them joy or it isnt worth doing...

[ancientdave]

I too, hava a Nero sestertius with a bothersome patina. It has a nice portrait and chocolate brown patina, but the bare metal shows through at several points on the bust, which I have always felt somewhat detracts from it's beauty. I have heard about Deller's, and have wondered if a small bit might might do the trick without compromising or cheapening the coin's look. Here it is for reference, any thoughts, opinions, or suggestions?

[Joe Sermarini]

[Dino]

[Robert_Brenchley]