Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Artemis Tauropolus?  (Read 21375 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Enodia

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2582
Artemis Tauropolus?
« on: February 20, 2009, 03:12:15 pm »
hello all.

today i have a question about a coin i purchased last Fall. it is a Provincial bronze (26mm) from Perinthos in Thrace, circa 1st - 3rd century AD...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=1966&pos=0

the coin is described as Demeter veiled right, holding flower in hand / Artemis Tauropolus advancing right, holding two torches.

my question is; why is this Artemis Tauropolus?

Artemis Tauropolus is known to us mainly from Euripides' tragedy 'Iphigenia in Tauris', and Her temple is thought to have been in Tauris (obviously), an area identified with the Crimean peninsula. not too far from Thrace, but not exactly next door either. Her cult is said to have practiced human sacrifice, offering up any stranger to their shores. nasty stuff!
Alexander III apparently desired to build a temple to Her in Amphipolis, but  it never materialized before his death.

okay fine, but what does any of that have to do with my coin?

the obverse of this coin is not just a random portrait of Demeter, but rather a depiction of a specific myth. this is Demeter veiled and in mourning, gazing longingly at the last reminder of Her lost daughter Persephone. a very melancholy and touching scene, and the reason i bought this coin (which is outside of my usual collecting area).
Artemis Tauropolus had nothing to do with this particular myth, but another goddess was intricately involved... Hekate.

when Demeter was searching for Her missing daughter, it was Hekate who told Her of hearing Persephone's cries. and when the situation was finally resolved, and it was decided that Persephone would spend a certain portion of each year in the Underworld with Hades, it was Hekate who agreed to act as guide (propolos) on this annual journey. this is further confirmed (to me anyway) by the fact that the goddess on the reverse of this coin is carrying two torches (phosphoros).
it is true that Artemis may also be granted the epithet phosphoros, but in this role She is usually depicted carrying only one torch. this is also true of Demeter, who is occasionally shown carrying a torch.
in fact the example on Wildwinds is described as Demeter...
http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/thrace/perinthos/Moushmov_4386.jpg
but this still denies the fact that this coin shows the myth of Demeter and Persephone, and as such the reverse can only be a depiction of Hekate, imo.

now i have read Greek mythology extensively, as well as Greek drama, and i have delved rather deeply into many of the original sources. however i am not a scholar and i have no college degree in the classics, so i am turning to the many experts here at Forvm.

why isn't this Hekate?

thank you in advance for any light shed here (pun very much intended!  ;)  ).




Offline Jochen

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12278
  • Omnes vulnerant, ultima necat.
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2009, 04:57:15 pm »
Hi Enodia!

At first glance I would call her Artemis Phosphoros (or Dadophoros perhaps). The centre of worshipping Tauropolos was Amphipolis, but Icaria too. Was there a cult of Tauropolos in Perinthos?

Here is a link about Artemis Tauropolos and Iphigenia (but I think there is not much new for you) https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=25089.100 Scroll a bit down.

Best regards

Online Enodia

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2582
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2009, 05:33:22 pm »
hi Jochen, and thanks for replying!

At first glance I would call her Artemis Phosphoros (or Dadophoros perhaps).

this certainly  makes more sense to me than Artemis Tauropolus. but why not Hekate?
i know the two were very closely associated, especially in earlier times. and the short chiton suggests Artemis, although i have come to rely less on this attribution.
but what really makes me think of Hekate other than the mythic association is the goddess' posture. Her torches are out front, and She is most definitely advancing. this is very much as one would 'lead' through the darkness, as Hekate lead Persephone.

Quote from: Jochen
Was there a cult of Tauropolos in Perinthos?
i searched long and hard before i posted this, but was not able to find any reference to Her cult in Perinthos. of course that doesn't mean it didn't exist.

thanks again,
~ Peter


Offline Jochen

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12278
  • Omnes vulnerant, ultima necat.
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2009, 06:09:41 pm »
Hi Peter!

I have a coin of Perinthos in my collection where Artemis as Phosphoros wears two torches and is advancing r. I have never read that she was called Tauropolos on this type. Therefore I'm a bit confused.

Best regards

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2009, 06:52:35 pm »
The older numismatic lists call the bearer of two torches Tauropoulos, but in an old thread some of us argued as Jochen just has done.
The one that IS Tauropoulos is the one that looks a little like Europa, but she isn't.
http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=187078&AucID=241&Lot=254
In some cases, it looks as if a nice obscure epithet caught on and everybody just latched onto it.
Pat L.

Offline Jochen

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12278
  • Omnes vulnerant, ultima necat.
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2009, 07:27:19 pm »
Besides the 'Europa-like' Tauropolis there is another depiction too from Amphipolis where she is depicted stg. wearing a mural crown and holding a long torch and a shield. Pic from CoinArchives.

Best regards

Offline curtislclay

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 11155
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2009, 07:36:55 pm »
Schönert in her Münzprägung von Perinthos calls this goddess with two torches Artemis Tauropolos, but without any explanation or argument (p. 57).  This is apparently a traditional designation, taken over by the cataloguer of Enodia's coin, as Pat L. says.

However, Höfer, article Tauropolos in Roscher's Lexikon der Mythologie, does not include Perinthos is his list of cities where a cult of Artemis Tauropolos is attested.

The meaning of the epithet Tauropolos was unknown and disputed even in antiquity.  Höfer discusses six different interpretations proposed in ancient sources.

Seems to be a complicated and uncertain matter that I do not have the energy or resources to investigate!

Curtis Clay

Online Enodia

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2582
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2009, 09:48:40 pm »
thank you everyone for replying.

In some cases, it looks as if a nice obscure epithet caught on and everybody just latched onto it.
yes, i had an idea this might be one reason, and it makes sense too.

and along those lines i was thinking that Hekate, being such an obscure deity, might not have been on the radar of those early attributors. after all, this is a goddess who appears in few myths, and whose literary references are often limited to Her association with Medea, or even worse (especially in the later texts) the rather narrow 'Hag Queen' type descriptions. The PGM can be cited here as a source of this negative connotation, as well as Hekate's name appearing on so many curse tablets.  Shakespeare certainly didn't help to dispel this either. so we are left with a very unpopular image of this very complex goddess, and perhaps this is why She is often 'left out', so to speak.

however i still believe that this coin is a depiction of Hekate rather than Artemis (or at least the Hekate aspect of Artemis, if we want to go that route). i simply cannot find any logical explanation for this being anyone other than Persephone's propolos.

in addition, Thrace is often cited as the land of Hekate's origin (although i am personally not convinced of this and prefer the Anatolian arguement). this Thracian origin might come from Louis Farnell's belief that Bendis and Hekate were one, and Bendis certainly seems to have been a distinctly Thracian goddess. however in his broad ranging but rather elementary book 'Hekate in Ancient Greek Religion' Robert von Rudloff states;
 
"In the forth and later centuries Bendis was absorbed by Hekate in Thrace, but by Artemis in Athens."

in light of this, and with the knowledge that much of Greek history, and certainly Greek religious history, is Attic-centric, i am holding on to my pet theory for now.
however i am open to persuasion...


Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2009, 11:49:29 pm »
I think that if you follow all the fibers in this old thread you will see how actually difficult (if you want hard-and-fast labels!) this question really is:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=45551.0
And don't disregard the articles that Curtis pointed out to you.
Pat L.

Online Enodia

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2582
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2009, 01:47:17 am »
yes thank you Pat, i remember that thread, although nothing there seems to confirm or deny this attribution. still it does serve to illustrate the apparent complexity of the subject, as you said.

i would love to explore the articles Curtis mentioned (and thank you Curtis for that), but i have not yet been able to access them on the internet, nor do i have enough German to do anything but get myself arrested!

but is it really all that complex? can we not apply Occum's Razor to this question? by that i mean to say what evidence is there that this is Artemis? did She have a cult in Perinthos that would cause their coinage to honor Her? was She directly involved with Demeter, as regards the Persephone myth, or the Eleusinian mysteries? is there anything in the symbolism of this coin to confirm Artemis, or deny Hekate?
or is this merely an application of the easiest and/or most popular attribution, with no further discussion necessary? i cannot believe that is true, as we have already seen one popular and traditional attribution fall by the wayside. so we are not old school Egyptologists here, steadfastly refusing to budge from the old line.
at least i hope not.

and yet i can't help but feel that there must be a simpler solution here, one that has not yet been brought forward. nothing in this thread has yet stated "this is Artemis (apply popular epithet here) because...", only that it has always been thought as such, and therefore it must be so.

forgive me if i am sounding argumentative here, as i do not mean to. i just have a hard time with theoretical sacred cows unless there is some hard evidence to support them. challenge and refine.

then again you may have hit the nail on the head when you said that i am just looking for hard-fast labels where perhaps none can apply. but hey, why not push the boundaries, eh?
  ;)

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2009, 03:12:39 am »
I went round and round and round on these cults and the coins and other monuments that are supposed to illustrate them, just as the authors that Curtis cites did.  I started with the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, too, which contains allusions aplenty.  I have no doubt that any clarity concerning Hekate is due to Hellenistic housecleaning, so to speak, and that Artemis and / or Demeter cults in Thrace and adjacent regions were very naughty to leave us without literary documents of their own and the provision for their conservation.  It is perfectly maddening, but it is (so to speak) real; it is the way human beings are about their customs and beliefs.  The author(s) of the Apollodoros Library, heaven knows, tried hard enough to impose clarity and couldn't.  Pausanias got different accounts from one priest or author or another and often was so kind to record more than one.  These goddesses who bear torches, whose priests and priestesses and acolytes carried torches in their processions, who had those biconical woven things, whose names (such as tauropolos--the other day I spelled it like modern Greek) have unfathomable etymologies, are not to be pigeonholed, I'm afraid.
A generation ago Peter and Linda Opie gathered children's rope-jumping and other playground rhymes and got many different versions of each.  And that's just for children's games of the 1900s.  And only in English.
Consider that the ancient world of the Roman Empire could hardly, in spite of all their travel and the curiosity of many minds and the currency of only two principal languages, have known all the stuff we want to be clear about.
I have just deliberately thrown what I regard as a salutary monkey-wrench into the associations of Apollo Iatros.  Why, we still can't ascertain whether the name Apollo is or in not really (note that 'really') Greek!
Pat L.

Online Enodia

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2582
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2009, 03:36:16 am »
yes, we have indeed chosen a scholastic quagmire in which to invest our historical curiousity, and how frustrating it is!
still, i am not quite ready to throw in the towel and say it isn't decipherable. but just chosing the next path of inquiry is in itself a conundrum.

so i guess we are at the point of saying it may be either? at least we can say that much, to narrow it down to one goddess or the other. however maybe even that is not so simple, as we might still include Demeter in the equation.
at least i believe we are on safe ground in eliminating Artemis Tauropolus as a viable possibilty, and that is some comfort.

but let me pose this question;
if we were to disregard all previous scholia and numismatic attributions and pretend this coin had only just been discovered, and just based on the logic of what we know about the myth, then who might we claim this to be?

oy, my brain is beginning to hurt!

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2009, 12:21:46 pm »
I'm not saying to throw in the towel.  I'm saying to seriously study what we do and don't know, and where it comes from.
Who said that 'Artemis Tauropolos' can be eliminated categorically?
Who said to disregard all older opinion?  Not I, surely.  Not Curtis (consider the date of the Roscher article he cited for you).  Consider the date of the Wroth article that I read with such interest.  I only had to keep in mind what hadn't been discovered or excavated or published yet at the time of writing, in case some of that might affect his discussion.
And of course it is really bad to try to keep one's nose clean and just call everything 'genius' or 'local goddess'.  Not at all helpful.  For the Perinthus goddess with torches, if her image had just come to light for the first time, and (like a Renaissance man) all we knew were the labeled deities on Rome mint Imperials, we would say Diana Lucifera (maybe with a footnote showing we were aware of the difference of cults in Grrek- and Latin-speaking lands, and mention of Hekate that we had picked up from literature, with the warning that Hekate is not nearly so common on coins, generally, while some aspect of Proserpina, as we'd call her with typical Rome-oriented bias of our time, was also possible, not least because Demeter is all over Perinthus coins.
Don't waste time fussing.  Better take the time to learn German.
Pat L.
P.S. Evidence comes in dribbles, bit by bit.  Here is an Homonoia (Alliance) issue at Bizya with Byzantium, issued for Philip I.  I came across it while I was looking for something else at Bizya.  It does show, I think, that Artemis (with or without a particular epithet) associated with that remarkable conical basketwork thing (perhaps a ritual torch) is one of the deities for whom it may have stood or been used (regionally, it may have been used for others, too).  Coin reverses can be like stone ruins; saxa loquuntur, 'the stones speak', but as every archaeologist knows, unless they are inscribed, they don't speak verbally!  The reservations and qualifications in parentheses are essential.

Offline Jochen

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12278
  • Omnes vulnerant, ultima necat.
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2009, 06:11:32 pm »
For what it is worth, in 'Imhoof-Blumer and Percy Gardner, A Numismatic Commentary on Pausanias, 1885-1887, Book I, Megarica' I found this:

1. Paus. I. 40, 2; cf. 44, 2, statue of Artemis in temple of Apollo.
ARTEMIS running to the right in short chiton; holds torch in each hand.
This type of Artemis recurs on coins of Pagae in exactly similar form. It is,
as we shall show in treating of that city (infra) undoubtedly a copy of the
work of Strongylion.


Best regards

Online Enodia

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2582
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2009, 04:33:27 am »
for the past few years i have spent my research hours trying to disambiguate Artemis and Hekate, no easy task to be sure. and what i am posting here does nothing to further that end. however it sems appropriate to this thread, so here it is.

Jochen posted a coin in the thread linked to above (Coins of Mythological Interest) which reminded me of a coin i have stored in my Hekate files. so to confuse matters even more i give you the following...

the reverse of the first coin (Tiberius, Amphipolis, AE 22) is Artemis Tauropolus, and the second (Stratonikeia. 1st-2nd Century AD, AE24 ) is Hekate.
the former is described as Artemis riding a bull (Tauropolus), and the latter as Hekate riding a lion (Kybele reference?) with a dog's tail (surely a Hekate reference), and both with billowing veils.
the similarities should be painfully obvious.

and i am now reaching for the Advil bottle.


catullus

  • Guest
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2009, 03:07:41 am »
At first glance I would call her Artemis Phosphoros (or Dadophoros perhaps).

this certainly  makes more sense to me than Artemis Tauropolus. but why not Hekate?
i know the two were very closely associated, especially in earlier times. and the short chiton suggests Artemis, although i have come to rely less on this attribution.
but what really makes me think of Hekate other than the mythic association is the goddess' posture. Her torches are out front, and She is most definitely advancing. this is very much as one would 'lead' through the darkness, as Hekate lead Persephone.

I checked out the article on Artemis in the Lexicon Iconographicum Mythologiae Classicae (LIMC) by Lilly Kahil, a well-known French expert on the iconography of Artemis (vol. II.1). She calls the type a dadophoros (torch-bearer) and apparently finds the hunting dress of the goddess on Peter's coin (short chiton and the boots) decisive: We are dealing with Artemis, not Hekate (see LIMC II.1 Artemis no. 445 = Artemis in Tracia no. 28).

Dr. Kahil concedes (p. 654) that the iconography of Artemis with two torches is sometimes very close to that of Hekate (art historians apparently help themselves by calling dubious cases simply examples of Artemis-Hekate!), but she can also point to several representations where the hunting dress clearly shows that the goddess holding the two torches must be Artemis (cf. esp. catalog nr. 419, a marble relief from Delos, end of 2nd, beginning of 1st century AD).

Like Jochen, Ph. Bruneau has already connected this type of the goddess with the statue of Artemis Soteira created by Strangylion for Megara (Pausanias 1.40.2-3) that was later copied and set up in nearby Pagai (Pausanias 1.44.4), although the Artemis there was apparently called Artemis Phosphoros (light-bringer).

In Thrace, the type of the running (or standing?) Artemis with two torches is first attested in coins of Kabyle where there was a temple of Artemis (Alexandre Fol, art. Artemis in Thracia, LIMC II.1, p. 773-774. I assume that the statue of the goddess in Kabyle was itself a copy of the Megarian Artemis Soteira with her two torches, and it's that statue of Artemis that the Perinthos reverses portray.

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2009, 03:59:43 am »
Precisely.  That's as good as we can do.  I, too, had read the LIMC articles.  The hunting garments do mean Artemis.  The pair of torches is literally dadophoros, and Diana Lucifera in Rome merely translates Artemis Dadophoros.  Literary myths have to be relegated to secondary significance, partly because we're dealing with Nordgriechenland, partly because this is a cult type rather than a literary type (a distinction that Lilly Kahil was fully aware of, not least from all her years with Artemis Brauronia, whose Little Bears ran torch races).  We should be aware, however, that is it not simply "art historians" who assume that "dubious cases" are Artemis-Hekate.  Not all hyphenated cases are alike; some hyphenations reflect actually documented practices; we cannot be certain, besides, what Thracians made of Greek deities, especially Artemis.  Also, let us remember that scholars like Kahil and Bruneau are exactly those who would have us go through all this stuff for ourselves, just as Sir John Beazley was overjoyed when a very young student of mine first convinced me, then him, that an attribution had to be changed and got herself immortalized in Paralipomena.  Terms like "well-known expert" and prefixing them "Dr." make great scholars squirm.  Great minds' opinions, indeed all serious opinions, are to be respected but not set up as auctoritates, as the young novice does in Umberto Eco's "Name of the Rose".
Pat L.

Online Enodia

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2582
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2009, 06:47:33 pm »
and yet this coin...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=1966&pos=2

with the short chiton is attributed as Hekate-Selene, not Artemis.
i don't agree with this either, as the Selene designation is apparently based on the so-called full moon rising behind Hekate's head. i believe this is actually the billowing veil of the coin above and others.

~ Peter

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2009, 09:07:55 pm »
Indeed.  The billowing drapery.  Here to show she's running fast.  Europa on the Bull is being rushed over the sea so fast that even her feet don't get wet (Nonnos, Dionysiaca).  Larger billow usually to stand for vault of heaven, often with stars, and with legend AETERNITASPat L.

Offline PtolemAE

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1941
  • PtolemyBronze.com
    • The PtolemAE Project - Ptolemaic Bronzes
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2009, 02:04:39 pm »
The 'Europa riding bull with billowing veil' is also depicted on some Seleukid coins of Sidon, and described as Europa, not Artemis, in the reference books (e.g. Houghton).  The imagery seems to long predate Roman times.

PtolemAE

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2009, 06:26:30 pm »
Yes, the billowing to express wind or a vault overhead goes back to Classical period art.  Pat L.

Online Enodia

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2582
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2010, 04:59:25 pm »
Quote from: PtolemAE on October 26, 2009, 02:04:39 pm
The 'Europa riding bull with billowing veil' is also depicted on some Seleukid coins of Sidon, and described as Europa, not Artemis, in the reference books (e.g. Houghton).  The imagery seems to long predate Roman times.

PtolemAE

yes, the images of Artemis or Europa riding the bull are very similar, the difference being the introduction of any symbol of the sea (waves, dolphin, etc). with this aquatic reference we have Europa, without... Artemis.

however i'd like to get back to the long - short chiton question. we have coins from Severus Alexander, from Elagabalus, and from Septimius Severus all depicting 'Selene-Hekate' wearing a short chiton.
in addition there is this passage from Walter Burkert's Greek Religion (page 171)...
"Hecate is a goddess of more independent character, however often she was equated with Artemis from the fifth century onwards. In the iconography she is generally pictured as the same lithe virgin with short chiton, except that instead of the bow she carries torches - though these may be taken over by Artemis also."

interesting, but not by any mens conclusive as there are more than a few ancient images of Hekate wearing the long chiton. however i think it does eliminate, or at least cast serious doubt upon,  the hard association of the short chiton with Artemis only.

~ Peter

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2010, 06:30:51 pm »
This thread beautifully illustrates how an iconic figure type (female divinity riding her big animal) can serve in different contexts, northern Greece and Phoenicia (or the Lebanese coast, by whichever designation) for different cults.  The billowing drapery also serves for the vault of heaven (as for Aeternitas) or movement alone (running or nearly flying, as for Europa) or both (as for Luna in her biga).
The goddess just sitting on a bull is seen as early as black-figure vase-painting.  I remember being puzzled by it when more than a half century ago I wrote a term paper on Europa and the Bull.  Those vase-paintings are probably the northern Greek Artemis, tauropolos.  The vase-paintings now would suggest to me that, ancestrally, this goddess had a bull "vehicle", of the Hittite kind.  Be that as it may, and duly considering the evidence for a confutation of Artemis and Hekate as noted in this thread, let us just note that not every goddess that gets called 'Artemis' in the literary tradition is the Ephesian one, and not every Hekate is exactly the triformis icon, and we just cannot sort out Greek religion as if we were sorting mail for the post office.

BTW, would anyone object to my moving this thread to Classical Numismatics?

Pat L.

Offline wandigeaux (1940 - 2010)

  • Deceased Member
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 873
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2010, 06:47:09 pm »
Just as an amplification of enodia's long/short chiton observation, here is a coin of Bruzus for Gordian III with a reverse always said to be Hekate, holding two torches and wearing a garment that challenges modesty (heaven forfend that she should raise her arms).  I have no idea what the two lappets shown behind her are.  She is also shown standing on a sphere, the heavenly sphere or what have you, presumably as mistress of the universe, a claim made for Hekate (picked up by me from Wikipedia, no doubt), but not for Artemis (though such a claim would not surprise me).  George S.
Hwaet!
"The pump don't work 'cuz the Vandals took the handle" - St. Augustine
GET THE HELL OFF MY LAWN!!
(1940 - 2010)

Offline vk

  • Praetorian
  • **
  • Posts: 23
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2010, 09:47:56 pm »
I am starting to collect Artemis coins and found this conversation very illuminating (if you'll forgive the pun).

I want to learn more about the various goddess associated with Artemis and their images.  Can you suggest some works to start with?  I've noted Lexicon iconographicum mythologiae classicae, which my university library has.  Others?

Thanks! 

Online Enodia

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2582
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2010, 10:58:23 pm »

Offline wandigeaux (1940 - 2010)

  • Deceased Member
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 873
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2010, 11:55:27 pm »
Hwaet!
"The pump don't work 'cuz the Vandals took the handle" - St. Augustine
GET THE HELL OFF MY LAWN!!
(1940 - 2010)

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2010, 11:56:06 pm »

Online Enodia

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2582
Re: Artemis Tauropolus?
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2010, 01:02:37 am »

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity