Info request- Severus Alex from Tarsus

[Aleph]

I bought this gigantic coin (medal?) at a local coin show about 3 years ago.  I was hoping someone might have a reference and could tell more about the reverse, especially what the plaque Nike holds says.  I was also curious if this is a medal as it is huge.  Interestingly enough, the only reference I could find is Lindgren I 1629 which to my great surprise is THIS coin.  The weight is nearly an exact match so I am assuming it is not a cast of the Lindgren coin (not that I would expect someone to make a cast of such a worn coin).  Kevin

Cilicia, Tarsus.  Severus Alexander.  222-235 AD. AE39, 33.02g, 6h.   
Obv.  Legend illegible.  Laur. draped bust rt.; P P in field.
Rev.  CEO...  Emperor stg. to the l. sacrificing at altar, Nike stg. to the rt. holding something above.
Lindgren I 1629 (this coin)

[areich]

I had a smilar question a while ago, these coins from Tarsus are regular coins, despite
their size.

Andreas

[archivum]

Just two specimens cited in Isegrim:
  11. Description (38506)
 geändert: Array
ERD: AM
PRO: CILICIA PEDIAS
PO : TARSUS
PZ : Between 222 and 235 
SPG: SEOY.. ALEXANDR
TIG: A M K / MHTR / G B
 Obverse
VSG: AY K SEOYHROS ALEXANDROS P P
VT : PORTRAIT MAN R / SEV. ALEXANDER
VA : WREATH LAUREL / CLOTHES
 Reverse
RSG: SEOY.. ALEXANDR TARSOY A M K G B MHTR
RT : PERSONS 2 / MAN STANDING HL(1) / EMPEROR(1) / WOMAN WALKING L(2) / NIKE(2) / ON / GLOBE / ALTAR LE(3)
RA : PATERA(1) / SPEAR(1) / WREATH(2) / BRANCH PALM(2) / FLAMING(3)
RF : TABULA ANSATA / WITH / INSCRIPTION
 Technical details
M  : AE
GEW: 33(1)
 Bibliographical references
ZIT: SLG LINDGREN I 1629(1)
 Additional remarks
FR : VS: AY K SEOYHROS ALEXANDROS P P RS: SEOY.. <AL>EXANDR T<AR>SOY <A M K G B MHTR> 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  12. Description (38507)
 geändert: Array
ERD: AM
PRO: CILICIA PEDIAS
PO : TARSUS
PZ : Between 222 and 235 
SPG: SEOYHR..ALEX
TIG: A M K / MHTR / G B
 Obverse
VSG: A.. HROS ALEXA.. PP
VT : PORTRAIT MAN R / SEV. ALEXANDER
VA : WREATH LAUREL / CLOTHES
 Reverse
RSG: SEOYHR..ALEX TARSOY A M K G B MHTR
RT : PERSONS 2 / MAN STANDING HL(1) / EMPEROR(1) / WOMAN WALKING L(2) / NIKE(2) / ON / GLOBE / ALTAR LE(3)
RA : PATERA(1) / SPEAR(1) / WREATH(2) / BRANCH PALM(2) / FLAMING(3)
RF : TABULA ANSATA / WITH / INSCRIPTION
 Technical details
M  : AE
GR : 38(1)
 Bibliographical references
ZIT: COX NNM 92 197(1)
 Additional remarks
FR : VS: A.. HROS ALEXA.. PP RS: SEOYHR..ALEX TARSOY A M K G B MHTR 

[Aleph]

I was not familiar with the Isegrim project.  The entries are interesting.  The first seems to be a direct reference to this particular coin.  I was wondering whether the second is the same coin (at a different time/collection) or if it is a distinct example?  Can you tell with the Isegrim database?  The legend readings are slightly different but I can tell from my coin that some of the readings must be a little speculative.

[archivum]

The reverse legends seem to read differently on the two coins, so I think the two must be distinct; you could maybe rule out commonplace mistranscription by actually visiting the source that the second entry cites (COX NNM 92 197(1) * ).  As for Isegrim, a great union-archive of numismatic sources for ancient Asia Minor, see this Forum link for a brief user's guide:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=44094.msg276771#msg276771

  * Dorothy H. Cox,"A Tarsus Coin Collection in the Adana Museum"; this makes it sound as if the coin in question's still in Adana.

[Aleph]

Archivum,
What search string  you use in Isegrim?  I have been playing with it and cannot reproduce your search.  The database seems really finicky with the queries.
Thanks

[archivum]

vt: .*alexander rt: nike po: tars.*

[Aleph]

Sorry to go on about this but how do I figure out what COX NNM 92 197(1)  stands for?  I tried searching bibliography to no avail. 

My problem earlier was that I didn't know that  .* was the wildcard symbol.  The Isegrim database appears to be a great resource but it reminds me of trying to use UNIX.  Very powerful when you know how to use it but definitely not user friendly with all the cryptic commands and being unforgiving of typos.

Thanks

[archivum]

I have just now updated my user's guide link, so that people should now have an easier time actually getting the Isegrim entries they're after; as for getting am Isegrim reference like NNM 92 clarified, if you go to the Isegrim "Search Bibliography" page, then enter NNM in the Bibl. Abr. line, it will give you the series title "Numismatic Notes and Monographs," and if you then go on to Google-search Cox "Numismatic Notes and Monographs" 92, it will give the specific title cited.

[Aleph]

Thanks archivum for he Isegrim howto.
If anyone has access to the following, can you check if my coin is the same one as 197 in the article:

Cox, Dorothy Hannah. 1941. A Tarsus coin collection in the Adana museum. Numismatic Notes and Monographs, no. 92. New York: American Numismatic Society
Coin 197

Thanks
Kevin

[rennrad12020]

  I had an opportunity to look up coin 197 in Cox's tiny monograph.  Only the reverse of the coin is depicted.  Unfortunately the quality of the plate, and especially the coin itself are so poor that it is impossible to independently confirm what Cox wrote.  I am also hesitant to confirm a reverse die match as the coin on the plate is so worn. Probably not. What she gave the legend as is what Isegrim listed. 

[Aleph]

Petrus,
Thank you for looking.  The article is definitely not one I am likely to have access to anytime in the forseeable future.  Thats really too bad about the low quality plates.  It sounds like it probably is a different specimen though as the flan shape on my coin is so distinctive and would probably have been apparent even on bad plates.  Thanks again.  From what I gather, these large coins of Tarsus are relatively common, though this particular reverse would seem to be rare.

[rennrad12020]

cckk,
  Your coin is definitely not the exact coin depicted in Cox's article. 

[curtislclay]

Yes, because that coin has a substantial flan crack at 3h and smaller ones at 9h and 10:30h, among other differences.

I think the rev. die is probably the same, however.

Cox in the ANS monograph and Lindgren/Kovacs 1629 both assert that Victory, standing behind the emperor on a globe, is extending a wreath in her r. hand to crown him.  It seems clear from Kevin's coin in the image above and on the Lindgren/Kovacs plate, however, that she in fact holds a writing instrument and is reaching up to the r. end of the tablet in the field.  I think her job was to write the letters AMKGB on the tablet and the artist has depicted her just finishing that task!

[Aleph]

Thanks all for the replies.  I hope a better preserved example turns up as I would love to see the reverse as the engraver intended.