Puzzling Greek Fourrée: Two Dolphins

[Rupert]

Hello all,

this is my latest Archaic acquisition, and one that I can't get attributed. Well, it might even prove to be impossible.

Drachm??, silver-clad copper
Obv. Two dolphins swimming around each other in a circle
Rev. Incuse square, reminding of the Aeginetan pattern
3.67 g, condition see picture; size 13,6x12,5 mm, max. thickness 4.3 mm

Well, somehow the style points to the Aeginetan or Cycladic area, but this representation of the dolphins is unknown to me. Also, an Aeginetan drachm should weigh about 6 g, so this piece would be massively underweight (and undersized) and should therefore have been discovered after quite short circulation. The island of Thera has two dolphins swimming one above the other but not in a circle. I know this circular pattern from coins of Argos, but from a much later time. Does anyone of you have an idea where this coin might come from or which type it was meant to imitate?

Thanks in advance,

Rupert

[Rupert]

A member of the German board suggested Thera, which does, of course, easily come to mind here; but all coins of Thera I have seen have the dolphins above one another and not in a circle, both staters and drachms (below is a drachm from Coinarchives);and the weight of this coin makes it hard to fit it in the Aeginetan / Cycladic standard. Opinions anybody? Looks like a real toughie.

Rupert

[lusomosa]

Maybe Carpathos ? An island off caria.

This is a stater , 13.91 g.

LP

[Rupert]

Yes, I think as well that the coin's origin should be placed in the Aegaean. Yet these coins all have dolphins swimming in opposite directions but on top of each other, not in a circle around each other. Maybe the ancient forger created a fantasy type here, hoping that anybody who got this coin would think "oh well, five islands further they probably have such coins"?

Rupert

[Dino]

Take a look at this.  Not a match, but a bit closer:

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[Dino]

None of the below are matches, but at least the dolphins are closer to those in your coin.  Maybe it will help you as you look.  Very interesting coin.

thraco-macedonian
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mysia
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Lycia
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[Dino]

Also not matches, but with dolphins oriented similarly to yours:

crete
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megara
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Celtic
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[Dino]

Don't know if you're still trying to I.D. this, but in browsing some sites came across this site and remembered someone trying to ID a similar coin here:

http://www.rudnik.com/greece/seacreatures/dolphin/

More specifically, take a look at this entry:

http://www.rudnik.com/greece/seacreatures/dolphin/htmls/G1933.html

I know it's way too small to be your coin, but it's the most similar I've seen and thought it might help if you haven't ID'ed it yet..

[Rupert]

Thank you, this is very interesting, since I only knew the normal type so far, with two dolphins swimming in opposite directions on top of one another, as on http://www.rudnik.com/greece/seacreatures/dolphin/htmls/G2499.html .
I wonder how secure the attribution of this fraction you posted, with the dolphins swimming in a circle, to Thasos is. If it is correct, then my piece might also imitate an early Thasos type. I wonder if this type would then have to be placed before all the "Satyr and nymph" coins?

Rupert

[Rupert]

Well, here I am again. Thanks again Dino for the hint to this small silver coin; after a few months, I finally had the idea (Duh!) "hey, I might buy that coin!". So I did, and now here it is, and it's a real little beauty. But where it comes from - I still don't know.

It was sold as being from Thasos, but of the three references quoted Delepierre does not list it, and the Sear link refers to a coin of the Thasian pattern with dolphins above one another. The last one (Plant 1737) I couldn't check yet - does anyone of you have that book and could look it up for me?

Best regards,

Rupert

[Manzikert]

Hi Rupert

The illustration in Plant shows the two dolphins one above the other as thre normal Thasos type.

Best wishes

Alan

[Rupert]

Thank you very much Alan! So the tentative attribution to Thasos seems no safer than any other.

Some of the coins posted above by Dino are very interesting, especially the beautiful Lycian stater. Yet I'm even wondering whether the two coins that I have now are, or pretend to be, from the same mint. While the incuse reverse on the pseudo-drachm resembles the Aeginetan incuse squares to a certain extent, and also the drachm is of a very thick fabric like Aeginetan or Aegaean coins, the flan of the small silver coin is so thin that there is actually a hole between the obverse and the deepest spot of the incuse square on the reverse! Besides, I would rather place it farther to the north with its incuse square so neatly divided in four.  I marked the hole produced in the striking with arrows in the picture. The incomplete hole marked with circles was punched in at a later time.

So, there are still a lot more questions than answers!

Best regards,

Rupert

[Dino]

Saw this and remembered this thread.  I wonder if it's one dolphin or if the second so worn as to not be visible.  Attribution by seller is below.  Don't have  BMC so I can't check reference.

Islands off Thrace Thasos AR Hemiobol / Dolphin

Attribution: BMC 73
Date: 463-411 BC
Obverse: Dolphin swimming right
Reverse: incuse
Size: 7.85 mm
Weight: 0.3 grams
Rarity:  6
Description: A nice early silver with clear detail

[esnible]

BMC Thrace is online.

BMC 18-22 and BMC 18a have two dolphins in opposite directions and an incuse square, but they are obols about 0.6g.
http://books.google.com/books?id=tTkGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA217
http://books.google.com/books?id=tTkGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA240

BMC 73 is a Dionysos/Herakles tetradrachm.

[Dino]

Good to know that it's online.  I've bookmarked it, thanks. Perhaps the coin I just posted is BMC 23?

[Rupert]

Eleven (!) years after the last post in this thread, I just came across this coin:
https://www.artemideauktionen.at/auction/view/709/10
Since the link will probably be dead some time, I'm also posting the pictures. The obverse rather resembles my little hemiobol, but it's attributed to Populonia, Etruria, and the rev. is blank. So more questions, still no answers.

Rupert