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Author Topic: Comparing photos  (Read 9228 times)

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Offline ROMA

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Comparing photos
« on: December 21, 2007, 12:23:31 pm »
I purchased a couple coins, the photos with the black background are the dealers photos and the photos with the greyish/white background are ones I took. Which photos do you think show the coins off better? I was also curious how to do the background black(or any color) like the dealer did behind the coins. 
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Offline ROMA

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Re: Comparing photos
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2007, 12:28:16 pm »
Second coin...
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jerseyjohnjames

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Re: Comparing photos
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2007, 01:11:49 pm »
Hello ~ I like somone who asks questions about coin photography, something I too keep doing.
Currently I am using a black background for silver coins. See my Gallery - link below.
I have a plastic pudding basin light box, with a 60x7mm steel bolt through. The tube of a felt tip pen slides onto the bolt, allowing rotation, and a blob of "Blutack" on the end of the pen, allows tilting, so that the light/coin can be angled to give the contrast you want. Just what you have done, in your alternative shots.
White backgrounds come from a lamp in the pudding-basin, black from a piece of party dress material, out of focus, some 60mm below the coin. My (corrected) blue/white LED spotlamps react well with rich black pile materials, like in a disco. Simple now, but it took a lot of working out.

~ john ~

Offline Alwin

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Re: Comparing photos
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2007, 01:18:08 pm »
The first photo is indeed the better. The main reason is that the 2nd is distorted. For the black background it is easy. It is necessary to place the coin on a fine column, a black background being 20cm further.

Offline moonmoth

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Re: Comparing photos
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2007, 02:05:46 pm »
Also, the first photos have more even illumination.  The second set should look more like this, except without the photoshop effects.

On these shots, you have captured the bust better than the dealer, particularly the nose, but the reverse is not modeled as well.  The dealer's shot of the obverse is not particularly good but has the lettering clearer than yours.

Here's my own page on black backgrounds:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/moonmoth/photo_coins01.html


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Offline ROMA

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Re: Comparing photos
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2007, 02:11:15 pm »
thanks for the input, i agree moonmoth the more illumination the better. I've noticed some people photograph coins with the light directly on top of the coin., like this... whats your guys opinion on doing photos like this?
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Offline Alwin

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Re: Comparing photos
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2007, 02:17:42 pm »
distorted !! Is it a coin or a rugby balloon ?   :o
An other Philippus with black background (not distorted  ;D)


Offline moonmoth

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Re: Comparing photos
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2007, 03:51:51 pm »
ROMA, your last photo with the illumination from the top is potentially better than the earlier ones.  The detail is crisper and illumination is more even.  My own photos are mostly illuminated from very near the lens, with a reflector behind it, and I think it gives good results.  But there are others who use two light sources, more from the sides, and get excellent photos. 

With lighting from next to the lens you need to watch out for areas which are too bright.  Sometimes the whole field catches the light and glares into the lens, because of the unevenness of the side of the coin it is resting on.  Try to get both sides at the same angle - you can see that the dealer has not done this in the Philip photos.  Also, experiment with different exposures for different types of coin - no problem using automatic exposure as a starting point, but try setting exposure compensation a little one way of the other. 

To cover Alwin's point about distortion, you need the stage (that the coin is resting on) at 90 degrees to the lens. 
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Offline Alwin

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Re: Comparing photos
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2007, 04:05:48 pm »
Thanks Moonmoth, I have not enough english words for a good explanation.
Roma, you must also look the color. Your Philippus is certainly not yellow/green. This problem can be easyly corrected after with photoshop or PSP.

Offline ROMA

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Re: Comparing photos
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2007, 03:47:35 am »
That last shot I realize the camera angle was wrong. I just wanted to convey the overhead lighting of the shot. What exactly do you mean by adjusting exposure, how would i go about doing that(if its possible) with my digital camera?
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Offline moonmoth

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Re: Comparing photos
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2007, 07:08:11 am »
Well, exposure compensation depends on your camera, and I don't know whether yours will do it or how to do so.  Check the manual; it will probably be on an expert menu somewhere if you have it.  What it does is allow a little more, or a little less, exposure time than the automatic system suggests, which can be useful.  If you have it, try some experiments.  Your camera will try to make all your coins come out at the same tonal level, whereas in fact some coins are lighter and some are darker.  This adjustment can deal with that.

See this page for what I mean:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/moonmoth/photo_coins05.html

You can see that with no adjustment, the bronze and the silver have come out at about the same level of brightness, which is not what I want!
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Offline ROMA

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Re: Comparing photos
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2007, 10:40:28 am »
moonmoth I am a complete newbie when it comes to cameras and taking photos, but i am interested in learning. I own a kodak DX7630 digital camera, its atleast a couple years old so im sure its not cutting edge technology. Here's a link to the cameras specs at the kodak website. Id read them myself but I cant get anything out of the information like you can. Can you tell me if this camera is adjustable, or if i really would need something else to take quality pictures. One thing that bothers me is that I have to adjust the picture size to 1.7 MP for smaller pictures, but according to the website, at that setting im not taking high quality pictures, but at the higher MP settings the pictures come out to big! There is a EXP. BRKTING INTERVAL set a +/- 0.3, there's a 0.7 and 1.0 settings too, is that important? There's also a compression setting it can only be set to standard or fine, all of this is listed on the kodak site but too but i have no idea what it means. Oh i looked on the site and there is Exposure compensation, +/- 2.0 EV in 0.3 EV steps. I dont see an "exposure compensation" option in the menu so im not sure how to adjust it though. Thanks for any help!

http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQuerier.jhtml?pq-path=1841&pq-locale=en_US&_requestid=792
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Offline ROMA

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Re: Comparing photos
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2007, 11:36:21 am »
I changed the setting to 5.4 MP(optimized for 3:2 aspect ratio) and I resized image through photoshop program (Microsoft picture it!Premium 10) to compensate for the image size(gotta be under 200kb) Thing is the image should be a higher quality but it seems to have taken on a grainy look, which the coin doesnt have in hand. I think at the higher settings I can get closer to the coin without the camera going out of focus, but i dont want this grainy appearance... what do u think?
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Offline ROMA

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Re: Comparing photos
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2007, 11:38:43 am »
That picture above that Alwin posted is just awesome! Excellent clarity, the coin looks to be just the right color, and the background doesnt distract or blend with the image. I want to have my photos look something like that!
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Offline moonmoth

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Re: Comparing photos
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2007, 11:42:52 am »
(I wrote these two paras before you posted the last two ..)

OK, well, the best thing to do is to experiment with your camera until you have found and played with all the settings.  The exposure compensation comes under "Creative Performance Controls" so there may be a setting that activates those options.  But that's more advanced.  If you are new at this, then maybe start with the simple stuff: getting the right lighting and focus, getting a setup that holds the camera steady and the coin in the right position.

Take the largest and most detailed picture size that your camera can take.  If you need to reduce it to upload here, use some image manipulation software.  Did you get some with your camera?  Picasa is a free download from Google and is supposed to be pretty good, though I don't have personal experience.  The principle is to start with as much information as you can get, and reduce it when necessary - you can always to that, but there's no way to increase it if you start with a low resolution pic.

(onwards ...)

So you are already doing some of that - good.  Your coin really is that grainy, I am afraid; the camera magnifies all its faults, as I know to my horror.  Those last shots are really pretty good.  Now I want that coin myself ... an effect your earlier postings did not produce!  The image is a bit yellow in tone, probably the effect of your light source; either adjust your white balance or adjust the tone with software.
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Offline moonmoth

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Re: Comparing photos
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2007, 11:52:29 am »
Alwin's photo has strong side illumination from the right and some fill-in illumination from above or the left.  Two light sources.  Here's a Philip I taken with the single light source method shown on my web page, with the background made white with Photoshop.  Lots of possibilities for you to try out!
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Offline PeterD

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Re: Comparing photos
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2007, 12:16:16 pm »
Quote
There is a EXP. BRKTING INTERVAL set a +/- 0.3, there's a 0.7 and 1.0 settings too, is that important? There's also a compression setting it can only be set to standard or fine, all of this is listed on the kodak site but too but i have no idea what it means. Oh i looked on the site and there is Exposure compensation, +/- 2.0 EV in 0.3 EV steps. I dont see an "exposure compensation" option in the menu so im not sure how to adjust it though.

The EV setting allows you to under- or over- expose a shot compared with the automatically calculated exposure. So you can set an exposure to plus or minus up to 2 "stops" in 0.3 "stop" intervals. The "bracketing" feature allows you to have a plus and a minus compensation. The camera will then take three shots, one at normal exposure, one at plus and one at minus normal exposure. This function is very useful for coin photography. I don't know where to find these functions on the menu because I don't know this particular camera.

"Compression setting" just refers to the way the file is saved on the memory card. "Standard" setting may possibly lose some detail but save on memory, while "fine" has less compression but takes up more space. You probably won't notice the difference with coin photographs.

Peter, London

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Offline ROMA

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Re: Comparing photos
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2007, 06:04:56 pm »
Thanks Peter, the EV setting and the bracketing are very easy to adjust I just didnt know what they did, or if they were worthwhile to use. Thank you for the input Moonmoth, it looks like i need to go back through and take new pictures of everycoin i own with the higher image quality(ugh) That should be interesting to see what comes out of those photos.Ive messed around with picassa but with microsoft picture it I can manipulate photo size, and it seems to do the trick with everything else too, so ill stick with it for now.
How much clearer does a picture become when you put some distance between the coin and the background, like putting a coin on top of the head of a nail? Doing that does make the camera focus better on the coin correct? Also if the lighting im using is making the coin look a bit too yellow, what kind of light can i use in my desklamp that would be best? Im not gonna go out and buy some fancy new lamp right now, but there's gotta be some kinda  bulb better then the avg. 60 watt maybe? Thanks for all the input, its been informative so far
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Offline Akropolis

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Re: Comparing photos
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2007, 06:13:12 pm »
"but there's gotta be some kinda  bulb better then the avg. 60 watt maybe? "

Try a Phillips "Daylight" bulb at Home Depot or Lowes. That's what I use.
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Offline moonmoth

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Re: Comparing photos
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2007, 06:33:05 pm »
The distance from the background might help the camera focus on the coin, and will certainly make the background more even because it will throw it completely out of focus.

As for lamps .. the right white balance setting should compensate for your 60 watter.   Are you using auto, or tungsten?  Your camera has both settings and you should try both.   I am using a different sort of lamp, shown here:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/moonmoth/photo_coins02.html
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Offline ROMA

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Re: Comparing photos
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2007, 06:48:53 pm »
okay, i just a new photo, i want to see what you think, im sure you can tell which is the new and which is the old...
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Offline bpmurphy

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Re: Comparing photos
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2007, 07:47:04 pm »
Roma,

The photos look a bit oversharpened to my eye. Not sure if you're doing it in processing or if its being done in camera, but I'd soften them just a touch. That will cut back on the graininess. Sharpness is good, but oversharpening will also sharpen the roughness making the coin look more grainy than it actually is.

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Offline slokind

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Re: Comparing photos
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2007, 12:00:23 am »
Most of the digital cameras sharpen a bit by default, and all but the least estimable allow you to turn if off.  Turn it off.  If you need to sharpen in a difficult case (and that doesn't include your excellent denarii, but it would include tetartemoria that need to be enlarged just to be studied easily, and enlarging--that is cropping and saving only the middle of the exposure and viewing it at 100%--then you should use Unsharp Mask and only at 30%.  That is almost imperceptible, but it does help without doing harm.  Some dealer photos on eBay look as if they're made of granulated sugar; that comes of using, and grossly overusing, general Sharpening.  And then, of course, as Moonstone said, some coins with leeched surfaces are going to look grainy because, in fact, they are so.
Pat L.

Offline ROMA

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Re: Comparing photos
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2007, 05:43:17 am »
Yes, this is exactly how i feel. The photo is oversharp. I did not edit the photo at all myself so this must be going on inside the camera. Unfortunatly I have no idea how to change this, any ideas where i might find this setting that you say i can turn off slokind? I just cant seem to get my pictures looking as crisp as those others loaded, I'll try a different setup but maybe i need a higher quality camera too
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Offline moonmoth

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Re: Comparing photos
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2007, 07:27:07 am »
Your camera has three sharpness settings: high, medium and low.  They are in the creative controls, color modes section.

You will need to work out how to use the menus to get to this yourself.

I found this out by looking at the page you gave a link to earlier on, and searching the page for "sharp."  This way of finding controls is probably easier than reading the manual, but I also suggest reading the manual from start to finish and page-marking any controls you think you might want to use later.  (If there is no paper manual, make a note of them.) When I buy a new digital camera I do this while the battery is charging, which helps with impatience .. they usually say the battery has to be fully charged the first time you use it.

I would recommend using the creative mode for your coin photos just because it will allow you to make your own decisions about this sort of thing.

Pat (slokind) says to use no more than 30% unsharp mask.  That is also my experience, but the right level depends on the image you start with and also on the other settings.  In Photoshop there are three sliders for unsharp masking; use them with caution, but do try them out and see.   I always sharpen up a little in Photoshop, but I watch the results very carefully.  My current settings are:  threshold: 3; radius: 3.8;  amount: use the slider and check the result - usually between 10 and 30 per cent.

Here's an otherwise untouched image, taken with my Canon EOS D60 in Raw mode, reduced in size and duplicated and then with some unsharps applied.  I would be inclined to use something between the middle and right; Pat would probably use the left.  All of them are decent reproductions of the actual coin.
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