Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. All Items Purchased From Forum Ancient Coins Are Guaranteed Authentic For Eternity!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Internet challenged? We Are Happy To Take Your Order Over The Phone 252-646-1958 Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.  (Read 35544 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

4to2CentBCphilia

  • Guest
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2007, 05:00:49 pm »
I am still hoping to hear from Curtis whether the repairs are recognizable under magnification.

I can understand them not being seen perhaps with a simple eye inspection, but now that the areas of repair have been identified, can they be detected under magnification?

Or are these repairs so good, that they can't be identified, without having had the photo of the earlier coin.

My concern is that, if they cannot be detected at all, in any manner, then........................less provenanced coins can be bought, repaired and sold without anyone ever knowing.

Mark

Offline curtislclay

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 11155
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2007, 05:08:53 pm »
Unfortunately I didn't check before the coin went back.
Curtis Clay

Offline curtislclay

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 11155
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2007, 05:44:07 pm »
The Diva Domna sest., in my opinion, has been expertly cleaned, and in no way tooled or damaged, so that it now gives a much clearer picture than before of the details of the original types and legend.  I would certainly much rather have the coin in its cleaned state!

The only "repair" to this coin appears to be the filling in of corrosion pits above the portrait on obv. and in some places on rev. too.  Not something I would do myself, but I don't particularly object to it either; I consider this to be the repair of damage to the coin, not any addition to or alteration of the original types and legends.
Curtis Clay

Offline ROMA

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 558
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2007, 04:50:00 am »
I've always been of the viewpoint that if you own something and you want to alter or even destroy it, its yours, you paid for it, and really have the right to do whatever you want with it. However come time to sell complete transparency is needed in the listing. If you alter it, fine, best quote that alteration in entirity and let the customers decide its value. It's not only unethical but its fraud to alter something to increase its value and sell it without divulging that alteration which im sure is what happened here with the coin in question. Most of the time an alteration, no matter how well done, only serves to lower the value of the item due to it no longer existing in its original state. See I know vintage baseball cards and right now everyone in that hobby is in an uproar about the alteration and restoration were seeing right now the "card doctors" as there called. The money aspect has become so huge that its get harder and harder on the simple collector.

I wanted to add that after going through and reading all the posts there was mention of a money back guarantee from one of the grading services. Does a grading service exist that really knows what there doing with ancient coinage? From what i can tell the grading services with the best reputation dont really want to get involved.
Adversus solem ne loquitor

Offline Robert_Brenchley

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 7307
  • Honi soit qui mal y pense.
    • My gallery
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2007, 05:34:06 am »
I think Curtis is on the right lines; the last two look as though they weren't too well cleaned in the beginning, especially the first. I'm not so sure about filling the pits, if that's not going to be noted in the description, but I suppose it's acceptable as long as the repair is visible. I think we always have to assume that at some point the coin may be put on the market as being unaltered.
Robert Brenchley

My gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10405
Fiat justitia ruat caelum

Offline Jochen

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12312
  • Omnes vulnerant, ultima necat.
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2007, 06:55:26 am »
Hi Roma!

I too can't agree! There are objects which in an ethical sense don't belong to you even if you have the laws on your side! Some objects we have in our possession we only own for a part of their lifetime and it would be more correct to say we have borrowed them. I remind of the Japanese banker who has had bought the famous painting 'The sunflowers'  of van Gogh. The rumour was that he wanted to take it after his death with him in his grave. It needed the scream of the whole art world until he gave up on his intention. This painting was not his but belonged to the whole culture world. I always see it like children you have!

The problem with improving or tooling objects must be seen differently. The frontier is not clear and depends on the object itself and the field of interest. We have seen that the restauration of an oldtimer car is needed to avoid the final destruction of the substance at all. On coins such an invasive intervention would be absolute unthinkable. But we have seen that the frontiers here are fluent too. This theme has been discussed too when dealing with cleaning coins. Curtis Clay once has said the limit is reached when the substance of the coin is altered. But now we have seen that even this definiton is only relative.

Best regards
   
 

Offline rick fox

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 630
  • Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2007, 08:16:23 am »
Curtis - Not to question you expertise in this field, but are you sure the Diva Domna coin above has not been tooled?  I know the before picture is quite bad, but the letters look a little too crisp in the after picture.  Also the wings of the bird (on the right side of the coin) appear a lot crisper in the second coin. 

Although I do have to say (and again its hard to tell from the photos) but it would be hard to tool this coin with all the corrosion on it...

Just seems strange.
Iacta alea est  - 'The die has been cast' (Julius Caesar Jan 10, 49 BC Rubicon River, Italy)

Offline curtislclay

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 11155
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2007, 09:56:22 am »
Rick,

I am indeed sure.  There is an obvious difference to the trained eye between genuine detail produced by striking from the die, and fake detail created by tooling!
Curtis Clay

Offline Jerome Holderman

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1630
  • My name is Jerome, and I am a coinaholic!
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2007, 10:12:34 am »
What about the Plotina? To me it does not appear tooled either ??

Offline curtislclay

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 11155
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2007, 10:36:42 am »
There is light smoothing on the Plotina, already evident in the "before" image above.

It's not clear to me how the even brown color of the Plotina was achieved: whether by REMOVING a thin layer of grey and green deposits, or by PAINTING OVER those deposits with a coloring agent, or by a combination of removal and painting over.
Curtis Clay

Offline bpmurphy

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1295
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2007, 11:13:26 am »
Concerning the Domna, it wasn't tooled, it just had the encrustations removed. I saw the coin and know who cleaned it. The extra sharpness in the letters etc. is a result of the removal of the encrustations.

On the Plotina, the brown color was achieved by taking a crappy photo. I'd wager that very little has been done to this coin in between the two photographs. Read CNG's description where it's described as dark green with traces of yellow, just like the first photo looks. CNG's bronze photos tend to be hit and miss when it comes to accurate color, you have to read the text.

Barry Murphy

Offline slokind

  • Tribuna Plebis Perpetua
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6654
  • Art is an experimental science
    • An Art Historian's Numismatics Studies
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2007, 12:48:32 pm »
Yes: photography.  Photography is perfectly objective, but in doing it various professional skills are employed to produce the images that have been found to be desirable in sales catalogues, for mass reproduction and desirable to persons who may also always want a house that looks unlived-in.  Real-estate images for upper-end homes have their skills-package, too, and cookbook illustrations.  The camera is objective, but there are many choices, for coins, beginning with axial lighting.
That is why, much as I appreciate the enlargements, I always remember in CoinArchives that these aren't my photos; for one thing, they are conditioned by the requirements of ink-and-paper reproduction and the need to be seen even on the dimmest monitor.  That is why, for study, I make sure that I have a set of images that all were taken the same way, if I can.  I admit that I will not for some time be able to replace all my flatbed scans, but even they were all done alike and processed as little as possible.  And anyone who thinks that high-end coins haven't all been restored has a lot to learn.  He or she needs to look at photos of metal objects as found.  Of course, bad work not only detracts from beauty but lowers value, and that's a shame when it happens.  It is NOT however just euphemism for tooling.  And I do dislike in-filling (of pitting), but it is NOT ruinous (unless it allows BD to devleop under it!).  I do think that real connoisseurs prefer a scar to "airbrush", but even if I can't claim to be a real connoisseur, neither do I have the money to buy the coin at the head of this thread, though I think that its art made $750 a bargain price even with its scars.
Pat L.

Offline Falderal

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
    • The Metaphor Observatory
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2007, 04:40:43 pm »
I'm very much enjoying the philosophical debate underlying this thread.

While some feel a coin's history is compromised by a present-day alteration, others see the coin as a continuous object that maybe only needs good record keeping. Meanwhile, no one seems to see the modification as a positive point in its provenance.

There appears to be no doubt that the motivation was greed, and that there was some intent to deceive - yet no one seemed to be concerned as to whether greed itself was a motivator in the cleaning and repair of the Diva Domna sestertius. This suggests to me that greed is not under ethical scrutiny here, only matters surrounding the alterations themselves.

The other day, I saw a show that was trying to track the history of a silver ingot that was recovered from Antocha shipwreck. A beautiful piece with only one seemingly tragic scar: an intentional diagonal gash starting from the bottom right hand corner. It was later revealed that this was a mark designating somebody's piece of the action, among other possibilities. The point is, the mark was nothing less than a battle scar - a moment in the ingots long existence, neither necessarily good nor bad, only historic.

This brought to mind a coin I have which is an 1893 Indian head penny, impressed, possibly by a train, with the face of a 1910 Lincoln penny. Whether one deems it defaced or not, it undoubtably marks a specific moment in the coin's long life, though many years after its birth. I see it now as not an end of its virginal history, rather a part of a longer history, one which continues, but does not end with me. That said, I would not imagine modifying the coin myself.

So I ask: are we a part of a coin's ongoing history, or curators of its past?
"Coining a word leaves your mouth minty fresh!" - G.G. Falderal

Offline saholz

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 298
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2007, 04:57:22 pm »
Restoration, repair, and cleaning are a part of the life of most antiquities, including those being stored and/or displayed in museums.  Famous paintings, murals, and statues all get their share of cleaning as part of routine maintenance and preservation.

I don't believe it's possible to find any ancient coin, other than truly uncleaned lots, that have not had something done to them over the course of their lives.  This is normal and not necessrily undesirable.  The problem is how much can be done to a coin, or an other antique piece, before it is no longer considered original?  Does cleaning the tarnish off a denarius really hurt the coin?  Does removing verdigris from a bronze sesterius compromise the integrity of the coin?  Does repatinating a coin that has raw metal showing through an otherwise intact patina create a problem?

These are all questions that will generate different answers from different collectors.  I don't know if there is a right answer, but there certainly seem to be many potholes on the road to coin collecting.

Stan

Offline rick fox

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 630
  • Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2007, 05:33:40 pm »
Does removing verdigris from a bronze sesterius compromise the integrity of the coin? 
Almost everyone would say no.

Quote
Does repatinating a coin that has raw metal showing through an otherwise intact patina create a problem?
- I would say yes to this, unless it was done through the natural process.
Iacta alea est  - 'The die has been cast' (Julius Caesar Jan 10, 49 BC Rubicon River, Italy)

Offline Hydatius

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1061
  • I love this forum!
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2007, 01:31:10 pm »
Quote from: pulvinar on July 19, 2007, 11:42:28 am
BTW - my detection of the FRAUD was not random as a prior poster claims.  Each and every coin that I consider for purchase is systematically compared with all of the online databases and catalogs in my collection.  If I'm thinking about shelling out 4-figures for a coin, I want to be damn sure that (1) it is authentic, (2) it hasn't been monkeyed around with, and (3) that I have the opportunity to return it for any reason should I detect fakery in the future.

I do the same and just assumed everyone else did as well.

Richard
Non tam praeclarum est scire Latine quam turpe nescire.

Offline rick fox

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 630
  • Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2007, 01:39:40 pm »
The lesson to this story is:
Buy from dealers you know and trust, who will be there in case some issue later crops up.
Iacta alea est  - 'The die has been cast' (Julius Caesar Jan 10, 49 BC Rubicon River, Italy)

Offline Arminius

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2405
  • carpe diem
    • Arminius-Numismatics
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2007, 07:32:28 pm »
What is this thread showing me personal?
My unconscious antipathy in "expertly conserved" coins became more conscious.
I will continue to prefer those partly sand patinated, varicolored, rough ancient coins with original uncleaned patinas, bearing acceptable marks of time and use.
My automatic distrust in perfect looking monochrome ancient metal surfaces has been sensitized. (My special thanks to Rupert for showing those horrible plastic surgery examples of Diva Julia Domna and Plotina .)

I must confess this is a very personal point of view and other people/collectors will prefer the opposite kind of coins (surroundings, friends, objects, ...) .
Neglecting the transientness can be very effective in our modern engineered civilisation. Eventually someone has to pay the price for illusory worlds without ageing - but for what added value ?

A.

Auer

  • Guest
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2013, 08:54:00 am »
So this coin has indeed resurfaced. This time at the well known german coin selling platform. And of course without any indication of the repairs made ;)

Taras

  • Guest
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2013, 04:02:08 pm »
Repairing coins without indicating it?
Really a bad habit!

Here another example showing how a coin estimated 750 EUR...
http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=569935


... after just four months, it magically becomes "among the finest known", estimated 2000 GBP!!!
http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=600019

 :o

Offline Molinari

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4555
  • My defeat, if understood, should be my glory
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2013, 04:23:20 pm »
Repairing coins without indicating it?
Really a bad habit!

Here another example showing how a coin estimated 750 EUR...
http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=569935


... after just four months, it magically becomes "among the finest known", estimated 2000 GBP!!!
http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=600019

 :o

But it looks like that example had bronze disease.

Taras

  • Guest
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2013, 04:43:58 pm »
Repairing coins without indicating it?
Really a bad habit!

Here another example showing how a coin estimated 750 EUR...
http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=569935


... after just four months, it magically becomes "among the finest known", estimated 2000 GBP!!!
http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=600019

 :o

But it looks like that example had bronze disease.

Yes, it was restored, with reconstruction of corroded areas, recreating a material similar to the rest of the coin (n.d.t.: including patina), with evident traces of red cuprite, which until a few years ago it was a kind of guarantee of authenticity, because very difficult to reproduce. These are some observations by acraf, lamoneta.it user.
At this link a discussion concerning this issue on the Italian forum:
http://www.lamoneta.it/topic/107014-bronzo-di-solus/?p=1209101

Offline Robert_Brenchley

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 7307
  • Honi soit qui mal y pense.
    • My gallery
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #47 on: June 06, 2013, 03:41:42 pm »
You can see the dollop of epoxy or whatever it is above the horse's muzzle quite clearly.
Robert Brenchley

My gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10405
Fiat justitia ruat caelum

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12153
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2013, 05:58:04 pm »
This is bronze disease treatment and repair.  If it was my coin, I would rather have it treated and restored.  However, there are two issues: 1) it should be identified as treated and restored and 2) sometimes these type of repairs are not done right and they pop out with new bronze disease below.
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline Rupert

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1993
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2013, 06:12:33 pm »
Exactly, the description should say something like "Bronze diease treated and holes (or pits) filled". Instead, such coins are often billed as "light smoothing in fields" or similar.

Rupert
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity