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Author Topic: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.  (Read 35536 times)

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pulvinar

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$750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« on: July 12, 2007, 09:50:26 pm »
Not certain where this occurred in the food chain, but the following coin up in the current [REMOVED BY ADMIN] Mail Bid sale is an "improved" version of the SAME coin that was sold by CNG in Sept. 2006 as part of the David Herman Collection ([BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]).

I would argue that this sort of "improvement" goes way beyond mere tooling.  Coin should be withdrawn or duly noted in the listing.

Pul




Offline awl

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$750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2007, 10:20:21 pm »
So what explains the dent on the first coin not being on the latter one. Was it smoothed?

Offline fordicus

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2007, 10:20:42 am »
I was unaware that it was possible to do this to silver coins, at least with this quality of work. Without the pictures to compare I would not have questioned the HJB version  :o

Offline FORVM AUCTIONS

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2007, 12:15:58 pm »
Filling and smoothing a hole, then carefully removing the raised metal caused by the die flaw is one thing, completely creating new detail on a worn surface is another. What we see here is easy to be done by almost anyone that has the proper tools and a steady hand.   Actual tooling that adds details and increases the grade, without looking grotesque and fake, is infinitely harder to do.

Imagine a famous painting. Someone puts a few drops of paint on it. That paint can be scraped and smoothed away with probably little effect to the original.  Now imagine a vandal scrapes the original paint down to the canvas. Now that is much harder to fix, isn't it.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2007, 12:23:42 pm »
Thanks for the notification, we are withdrawing the coin from the sale because of the repair. 

We bought the coin in its repaired state at the Chicago show last April.
Curtis Clay

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2007, 01:15:36 pm »
Quote from: pulvinar on July 13, 2007, 01:03:20 pm
If anything positive has come of this, it is a reinforcement of the value of coinarchives.com.

And reinforcing that we should give reputable dealers the benefit of the doubt before accusing them of something. 
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Offline slokind

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2007, 01:16:50 pm »
There are, I think, ateliers that cater to the conservation needs of some of the highest-end European houses who would regard this simply as restoration, if not 'conservation'.  I might look for this kind of work (had I access) in such places as the Hunt collection.  Not that I could tell from the catalogues.  Not that I'm making a specific accusation.  I hope they're all fine.  But the Hunts were buying prestigious art, not least the coins, as investment as much as pleasure, and it was well known internationally that the brothers were avid for the best and the rarest, money being no problem but rather would be used to 'validate' the wonder of their purchases.  Purchasers with bottomless pockets (or at any rate unchecked credit), with no disciplined expertise, who rely on experts, are a sore temptation to the market.  That's why I thought of the Hunts, not that I suspect them or their sources or those sources' experts.
This kind of work is not done by amateurs.  I have a cheaply acquired Republican denarius which shows the mess made by an amateur with a soldering iron--and the wrong kind of solder!  He need not apply to those ateliers.
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Offline Jerome Holderman

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2007, 03:33:49 pm »
I guess I am alone in that I have somewhat mixed feelings on this. On one hand I agree that this sort of deceptive alteration is wrong, but... on the other, it was done very well. The end result is superb and looks just as the mint worker would have wanted it to look.

It's a bit like the difference between buying a old rusted out muscle car and painstakingly restoring it to factory new condition with all original parts. This car when finished would be appealing to most serious collectors

As compared to buying the same rusted out car, slapping some bondo and a fresh coat of paint on it, putting in some cheap aftermarket seats and carpet ect. This car might appeal to some teenager looking for a toy, but never to a serious collector. 

Offline mwilson603

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2007, 04:22:22 pm »
We bought the coin in its repaired state at the Chicago show last April.

That's not the first coin that has been mentioned in this fake forum that was bought at the Chicago coin show.  I believe it is mainly reputable dealers that exhibit at that show, so I guess it is indicative of how even these dealers can be fooled by fakes and reworked coins.

From an amatuer collector, I would like to add how laudable it is that Curtis and the team at HJB have taken immediate and decisive action.  It's quickly rectifying mistakes that makes dealers like Joe, HJB and certain others stand out from the rest.

Offline Reid Goldsborough

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2007, 04:41:54 pm »
This is a great thread, exemplifying as it does many of the positives of ancient numismatics in the age of the Internet and a few negatives too, and illuminating some gray areas. First, Kudos to Pul for his detective work. Good job. And kudos to HJB for immediately withdrawing the coin. Finally, kudos to Joe for hosting FORVM and to others like him who do similar efforts.

1. This without question is tooling. It involved the moving of metal, the alteration of the essence of the coin. It went far beyond cleaning, which is universally accepted, and repatinating, which is accepted by most. Metal was removed on the obverse at the right eye, and metal was added to the nose. As far as I can tell, that's all that was done, but it totally changed the coin. I don't see a difference between moving metal to make details appear less worn and moving metal to hide defects caused by the minting process or circulation (gouges and scratches).

2. Tooling of this kind is nearly universally condemned in numismatics, though there are those who make their living at this, coin doctors who advertise in coin magazines. And it is in fact considered conservation or restoration, and thus acceptable, in other areas. It's always interesting examining where you draw the line. With numismatics, you want to preserve how the coin emerged from the mint and what effects circulation had on it. That's part of its history, the truth behind it. In other areas the line is drawn differently to how the piece of artwork likely looked when it was created. And as has been pointed out here, there are differing views in ancient numismatics about what's acceptable, what's acceptable with disclosure, and what's not acceptable.

3. I suspect that no investigation of this matter will take place, no article will appear in the press, nothing will happen publicly at least beyond what we share online. I believe the attitude of the powers that be is that it's in the interests of ancient numismatics to keep matters like this relatively quiet. I suspect HJB will share the name of the seller of this tooled item with other major dealers, and that the person behind this will have a more difficult time selling his tooled coins to other major dealers. But he'll still find buyers -- smaller dealers and perhaps to collectors directly through eBay. That same thing happens with those that are caught trying to pass off counterfeits as authentic even when it's apparent that it's done knowingly. Because nothing is published, these deceptions eventually find a way into the market and into collections.

4. I don't believe it's fair to expect dealers to scour CoinArchives.com, other online databases, and printed collections to vet every coin they sell. That's would add far more time to every coin transaction, more time than probably exists in the day. Yes, if a coin is questionable. But for most coins, dealers rely on their experience as well as reports from others like the one right here and from people who notice forgeries and alterations mistakenly being offered as authentic in printed auction catalogs. It's not a perfect system.

I think the solution, not a panacea, is more publication, openness, knowledge, education.
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Offline saholz

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2007, 04:50:09 pm »
So, am I correct in assuming that if this coin was listed as having had a repair to the nose and eye, the sale would be considered completely ethical?

Stan

Offline awl

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2007, 05:50:45 pm »
So, am I correct in assuming that if this coin was listed as having had a repair to the nose and eye, the sale would be considered completely ethical?

Stan

Yes, but it will certainly drop in value since it is tooled, but it won't be cheap either since it still the actual coin. I am not sure how they would phrase it, but in past listings I have seen phrases such as "lightly smoothed field and minor tooling in the hair."

Offline Numerianus

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2007, 06:36:46 pm »
I am sorry: how all members did agree that the coin is the same repaired and not an extraordinary good copy
with improvement? I do not see any traces of work at the current resolution...
 As I remember, some copies of silver coins (relatively cheap, by the way) of very high qualities were discussed
and the common opinion was that one cannot judge on their authenticity using only photos.  For such an expensive
 coin more advanced technology could be used... 
 

Offline Hydatius

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2007, 07:37:48 pm »
2. Tooling of this kind is nearly universally condemned in numismatics, though there are those who make their living at this, coin doctors who advertise in coin magazines. And it is in fact considered conservation or restoration, and thus acceptable, in other areas. It's always interesting examining where you draw the line. With numismatics, you want to preserve how the coin emerged from the mint and what effects circulation had on it. That's part of its history, the truth behind it. In other areas the line is drawn differently to how the piece of artwork likely looked when it was created. And as has been pointed out here, there are differing views in ancient numismatics about what's acceptable, what's acceptable with disclosure, and what's not acceptable.

With any piece of art or artefact from the past the general rule today among professional conservators is that you can 'improve' something (e.g. repainting the Sistine Chapel or adding a nose to a bust), but it has to be noticeable and completely reversible.  What was done to this coin is neither and therefore unacceptable in any scholarly or professional terms.  Further, since the aim was clearly to improve the obverse for the purpose of obtaining a higher price at sale, it constitutes forgery and is therefore if not illegal then certainly unethical by today's standards.

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Offline AlexB

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2007, 07:53:24 pm »
So, am I correct in assuming that if this coin was listed as having had a repair to the nose and eye, the sale would be considered completely ethical?

Stan

I think so - disclosure, when done prominently, is acceptable. Otherwise it is not.

Brgds

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pulvinar

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2007, 10:15:00 pm »
The biggest problem, whether you think this sort of vandalism is a positive or negative, is the loss of the ability to check the coin in previous catalogs.  I think I argue for most that we live and breathe old sale catalogs and listed collection plates in our attempt to ferret out authenticity and provenance.  This tooling travesty was carried out on a coin with an esteemed pedigree (i.e., SNG Levante plate coin, Herman Collection).  If I hadn't detected it, it might have been many years (if at all) before someone realized that the SNG plate coin did not disappear from the face of the Earth, but was altered to this version of its former self.

It is not ethical to significantly alter well provenanced coins for monetary gain.  If you think otherwise, please mail me all your SNG books, NAC catalogs, and the like.  You won't be needing them because they will be worthless if everyone else performs the same "Pimp My Ride" ancient coin fraud.

Pul

Offline curtislclay

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2007, 10:54:48 pm »
But I think no one comparing these two coins, "before" and "after", could fail to realize that it's the identical specimen that underwent repair!
Curtis Clay

Offline El Reye

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2007, 11:48:20 pm »
I have to admire the skill and workmanship in this “repair / alteration” and the keen eye of Pulvinar spotting it. We can only hope that CNG and HJB actively pursues the culprit and properly discloses his/her/their identity as we all know this was NOT THEIR FIRST AND ONLY TIME committing this type of fraud, by not disclosing the alteration.
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Offline CANTANATRIX

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2007, 09:10:16 am »
So, am I correct in assuming that if this coin was listed as having had a repair to the nose and eye, the sale would be considered completely ethical?

Stan

Yeah, its the fact that the 'repair work' has been covered up thats the trouble. That makes it fraudulent.

If its in the item description then the buyer knows exactly what they are buying so theirs no problem.
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Offline Barabus

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2007, 10:28:58 am »
saholz
 
I believe that the coin would not have brought the price it did if all repairs had been divulged.
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Offline rick fox

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2007, 11:17:01 am »
Curtis - What will happen to this coin?  Can HJB sell it as a "conserv'd" piece (or what ever you want to call it?)

How badly did the repair effect its value?

Rick
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Offline curtislclay

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2007, 11:33:51 am »
Rick,

The seller is taking the coin back and refunding our purchase price.

I expect that that dealer in turn will return the coin to the man they purchased it from, who is probably the one who bought it at the CNG sale and had it repaired.
Curtis Clay

Offline rick fox

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2007, 01:28:14 pm »
IS a "repaired" coin collectable?  I mean it is a nice looking coin either way.
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Offline DruMAX

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2007, 01:37:03 pm »
I would buy it...its an outstanding coin!! at a severely reduced price of course  ;)

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2007, 02:06:44 pm »
If it was honestly described, and the price represented something like the original cost of the coin plus the cost of the work done on it, that might be acceptable. But i think there are issues with any sort of 'invisible' restoration. However it's described or sold, it's still likely to emerge on the market without the caveat, sooner or later.
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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2007, 05:00:49 pm »

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2007, 05:08:53 pm »
Curtis Clay

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2007, 05:44:07 pm »
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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2007, 04:50:00 am »
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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2007, 05:34:06 am »
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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2007, 06:55:26 am »

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2007, 08:16:23 am »
Iacta alea est  - 'The die has been cast' (Julius Caesar Jan 10, 49 BC Rubicon River, Italy)

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2007, 09:56:22 am »
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Offline Jerome Holderman

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2007, 10:12:34 am »

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2007, 10:36:42 am »
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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2007, 11:13:26 am »

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2007, 12:48:32 pm »

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2007, 04:40:43 pm »
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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2007, 04:57:22 pm »

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2007, 05:33:40 pm »
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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2007, 01:31:10 pm »
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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2007, 01:39:40 pm »
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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #47 on: June 06, 2013, 03:41:42 pm »
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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2013, 05:58:04 pm »
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Offline Rupert

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2013, 06:12:33 pm »
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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #51 on: June 07, 2013, 03:52:48 am »
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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #52 on: June 07, 2013, 07:13:35 am »
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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
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Offline Rich Beale

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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
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Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #58 on: June 08, 2013, 01:05:06 pm »

Offline paul1888

  • Praetorian
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  • Posts: 98
Re: $750 flawed coin into $3500 EF coin.
« Reply #59 on: July 22, 2013, 11:41:24 am »

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity