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Author Topic: Vespasian? Denarius ID help  (Read 6024 times)

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basemetal

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Vespasian? Denarius ID help
« on: June 28, 2007, 06:51:11 pm »
This denarius is purported to be a non-attributed example of Vespasian. It is as you see quite worn and cleaned (not by me).  The portrait looks similar to early-reign issues, but the reverse inscription-I am unable to find with certainty.  It appears to be SLCVRT or SICVRT (partial).  Overall,, except for the reverse inscription and the appearance of the emperor it resembles many common Vespasian denarii.
It is 18mm and even in a worn condition it is 3.0gm.
Any help on this is appreciated.
Bruce

Online Jochen

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Re: Vespasian? Denarius ID help
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2007, 07:28:04 pm »
Hi Bruce!

In RIC is no denarius of Vespasian listed with rev. legend SECVRIT or similar.

Best regards

Offline Arminius

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Re: Vespasian? Denarius ID help
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2007, 08:13:20 pm »
The portrait is very unusual.
This residue of a coin looks as if someone tried to create "something new" - but as Jochen already stated not from a Vespasian denarius.
All i can fix is an emperor with the title CAESAR on the obverse and a seated Securitas on the reverse.

Regards

Offline David Atherton

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Re: Vespasian? Denarius ID help
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2007, 08:36:30 pm »
In the BMCRE on p 7 there is a note for an aureus with Securitas seated, with the legend SECVRITAS P R. It is possible a rogue denarius or two could've been struck too.

However, as Jochen has already stated, there is no denarius listed with such a legend.

basemetal

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Re: Vespasian? Denarius ID help
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2007, 09:59:26 pm »
Thanks to you all.  Vespasian70, I looked at aurueii as well, thinking it to be perhaps a mule and saw a couple similar but no match.
I still have no clue.  I thought at first it might be one of the Galba/Vespasian from early in his rule, but....

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Vespasian? Denarius ID help
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2007, 10:27:01 pm »
The SECVRITAS P R aureus of Vespasian cited on BMC p. 7 from Cohen, who quotes the Shellersheim Coll., 1800, is now Paris 27, pl. XXVIII: the identical specimen, bought by the Rothschilds from Shellersheim.

This could well be the corresponding denarius.  Is there any trace of P R at 3-4 o'clock?

The portrait is very like that on a group of non-Roman denarii and aurei of Vesp. assigned to Illyricum ("Aquileia?" in the plate captions) in BMC 414-426A, pl. 14.11-pl. 15.5.  Obv. legend is IMP CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG.
Curtis Clay

basemetal

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Re: Vespasian? Denarius ID help
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2007, 12:22:41 am »
Thanks for all your replies and as usual a special thanks to you, Mr. Clay.
I've included an image that includes the position you asked about. Sadly, I think wear precludes this.

As an addition: Raymond(rapre I believe) , this is the coin I procured for you as a worn Vespasian for your son's history class.  Given the discussion above, I cannot in good faith send it to you.  However I've already acquired another with specific instructions to my source for a worn Vespasian,  and identifiable.  The seller agreed that this was not an appropriate coin for your son's use. He will send me another gratis and I of course will send it to you gratis also.  I just hope it's not to late for his class.
Bruce
Basemetal

basemetal

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Re: Vespasian? Denarius ID help
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2007, 12:36:10 am »
One more iteration: It's awfully heavy for a coin in such worn condition.  My scales flipped back between 3.0 and 3.1.  I opted for the 3.0.  I took a very small (very) test cut on the rim and it seems to be solid silver also.
This is the most odd coin I've ever acquired.  I have no personal doubts about it authenticity regarding age, but once again it in terms of look and feel (quite subjective and no proof) "feels" like a drachm.
Thanks again Mr. Clay. Any further comments are welcome.
Bruce
Basemetal

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Vespasian? Denarius ID help
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2007, 10:52:44 pm »
When I asked Basemetal whether he would be willing to sell this denarius, he generously offered to donate it to me instead, in the expectation that it will eventually pass with the rest of my collection to the BM or the Ashmolean Museum!

With the coin in hand, I can confirm my previous attribution.

Obv: IMP (lower 1/3 only surviving, not 100% certain, under the bust) [CAESAR] VESPASIA[NVS AVG], head laureate r.

Rev: SECVRI[TAS - P R], possibly with traces of the P just before 3 o'clock, but uncertain.  The type is clearly the same as on the Paris aureus: Securitas rests her r. arm on top of her head, her l. elbow is on an armrest, and under her l. arm she doubtless holds a slanting scepter as on the aureus, none of which is however visible on the denarius.  She could be naked above the waist, as Securitas sometimes is; perhaps this detail could be decided from the Paris coin in hand.  The actual rev. dies are very similar, but I think slightly different: the C of SECVRITAS seems slightly lower in relationship to the goddess' r. knee on the denarius than on the aureus.

3.06 g., axis 6h.

This may be the first occurrence of this type in silver, and it is important for the mint attribution of the type: the obv. die of the denarius is very similar to those of Mattingly's "Illyrian mint", as I mentioned above.  The aureus obv. die fits there too, but is less characterisic; certainly its attribution to Rome in the Paris catalogue is wrong.

I will notify Ian Carradice of this thread; perhaps he can still cite this coin in the new RIC if it is unique, or maybe he will be able to name other specimens of this denarius already known to him.
Curtis Clay

iac

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Re: Vespasian? Denarius ID help
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2007, 05:24:27 am »
Curtis, thanks for alerting me to this discussion. I agree with your identification entirely. The obverse matches exactly with one of the styles (prominent wreath, upward gaze, medium to large sized head) that Mattingly attributed to Illyricum (without any evidence that I am aware of). I have called this ‘Uncertain mints Group 4’. The reverse, meanwhile, is the same as the aureus you cite in Paris, with SECVRITAS P R – a different die, but otherwise extremely close - which belongs to a rare group of aurei (and a couple of denarii) with a different obverse style that I have termed ‘Uncertain mints Group 5’. I have, however, already found reverse die links between these two groups, the logical explanation for which is that they originated at the same mint. I did consider an alternative explanation – that one group comprises modern forgeries made from the other – but, although I have in the past suspected at least some of the aurei of group 5, I am now coming round to the belief that most, if not all, are genuine ancient coins. I have no doubts about the authenticity of Group 4 coins, such as this new one. It is an early denarius of Vespasian of uncertain mintage. Can I have permission from whoever took these photos to use the images here for the RIC plates (if I can find room)?
Ian Carradice

basemetal

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Re: Vespasian? Denarius ID help
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2007, 07:24:35 am »
Yes Ian, you certainly have my permission.  I took the photos.
Bruce
Basemetal

Offline rick fox

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Re: Vespasian? Denarius ID help
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2007, 11:03:26 am »
Congrats Bruce on your unique find!
Iacta alea est  - 'The die has been cast' (Julius Caesar Jan 10, 49 BC Rubicon River, Italy)

Basemetalatwork

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Re: Vespasian? Denarius ID help
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2007, 12:12:54 pm »
Thanks rick.
Bruce

Offline Potator II

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Re: Vespasian? Denarius ID help
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2007, 05:12:59 pm »
Congrats Bruce on your unique find!

And I would add, congrats for your generosity too ...

I think this thread should be moved to the classical numism board (IMHO)

Regards
Potator

basemetal

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Re: Vespasian? Denarius ID help
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2007, 09:16:53 pm »
Thank you Potator II.
Hey, a chance to add to the total body of knowledge and to repay in a small way Mr. Clay for his priceless help on this forum?  Who wouldn't?
Bruce
Basemetal

Scipio Helveticus

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Re: Vespasian? Denarius ID help
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2007, 04:05:26 pm »
Congrads from me too Bruce! A new addition to RIC! Your name is now immortal man! ;)

basemetal

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Re: Vespasian? Denarius ID help
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2007, 08:00:27 pm »
Thanks Scipio.  Given that my real name (which you already know is Bruce Willis), it's kind of immortal already, in a chinese-curse sort of way. ::)
Bruce

 

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