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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Coin Photography, Conservation and Storage  |  Topic: Your advice needed for cutting and cropping coins 0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Your advice needed for cutting and cropping coins  (Read 48510 times)
Istinpolin
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« on: April 22, 2006, 12:49:01 pm »

Dear Friends

I have been facing some problems with my images. I use a Sony DSC-P150 with 7.2MP and very good macro function.

Along with that I am using a tripod to take images. I elevate the coin to bring it closer to the lense and have white paper under the coin.

I am using Photoshop 7.0 to make the coin look as natural as I can.

However, I always have some shade from the angle of light that I would like to get rid off. I couls use the magic wand but one needs a calm hand for that and it takes too much time as I process 100 coins sometimes.

Is there a way fast and good way to cut the coin out of the background completly and put it on a background that I have made myself, so that the coin seems like floating? Any andvice would be appreciated.

Best wishes,
Burak
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« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2006, 04:57:25 pm »

Dear Burak,
The exact set-up can vary according to equipment and space (I have a copy stand, but I used to use a tripod, for example).
But the answer to your problem is a white dish (mine is a white oven-ware glass baking dish) and a  sheet of ground glass or any non-glare treated glass about 30 cm. square.  You buy it at a normal glass shop or at a picture framing shop, and ask them to smooth the cut edges.  The lamp I use is an Ott-Lite folding desk lamp, but any mini-fluorescent, any lamp that is diffuse, is good.
The important thing is the white dish (or shallow box) with the ground glass (so not shiny, not glinting) on it so that THE COIN IS RAISED 4-5cm above the bottom of the white dish.  Sufficient light, passing through the glass, is reflected back from the bottom of the white dish so that you get no shadow at all.
Now that I have a tiny camera for snapshots, I used it to take a picture of my Nikon 5700 mounted in position.  I have found that with 5MP and 8X zoom, the camera mounted about level with the Ott-Lite, when the lens is extended to take a picture, it is about 10 cm above the coin.  I do a pre-focus, pre-exposure off the coin itself (no matter if it is a hemiobol that does not fill the center of the frame).  This gives me enough depth of field that both the center of the coin and its edges are sharp.  I don't like to have to 'sharpen' an image in post-processing, though a little is desirable on a big image of a tiny coin.
Pat L.
P.S. here is an image of a little dark bronze 10mm coin of Klazomenai.  It hasn't been 'cut' or 'cropped' at all.  I do hate using that 'magic wand'!  With this image, not necessary.  Just use paint bucket.  I don't like orange, but for a demo, OK
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Istinpolin
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« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2006, 04:43:19 am »

Well first of all Pat, I am impressed by your set up. It is too proffesional for my means. I have made a 15cmx15cmx15cm all black box painted with acryl, but instead of a glass plate I use a big nail with a wide head softenen with dried glue. I was thinking of using a glass plate, but I am generallz lazy when it comes to dusting ad cleaning. The problem I have with this sized box is that I cannot put the tripod around without going far from the coin, which means I am taking the image from too far away. Thats why I have switched to a primitive solution of white A4 paper, elevating the coin by 7cm from that paper and have the lense 4cm above the coin. Below you can see the an example of a Maximinus I that I photographed this way.

I defininitly will switch to your system but I would like to ask you some few questions if I may. You mention the deep dish you. I can probably use anything in this shape, but what about the material. Would wood do it? Does it have to be non shiny porcelan?  I have a custom made box like I said before, but I do not know if you have seen that specific Simpsons episode, it looks like the Spice Rack Homer built for Marge. In other words it is horrible.

You also mentioned the size of about 30cm. Is that the diagonal shape? Can I use a smaller application of about 15cm.

Also, where can I get such a copystand to attach my camera to, so that I can come as close to the coin as possible. That would be so amazing to have one, as my tripod does not go any deeper and that is why I have to elevate the coin. I live in the UK and was never able to find one.

Moreover, I have a huge lighting problem. Is fluorescent light the best I could use. I once heard that a "colder" light bulb such as for reptiles would be the best, but I could not find one of these, as well. I use a conventional horrible desk-lamp with a conventional clear 60W light bulb and always get a horrible red colour which destroys the nature of the coin vastly and takes out to fix at photoshop to only a certain degree.

You also mention "paint bucket". Do you mean the paint bucket from Microsoft Paint which comes with Windows, or some other software. I tried Microsoft Paint and it does only a minute are of the background.

Best wishes,
Burak
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Istinpolin
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« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2006, 04:48:33 am »

The image above turned out better, but I have real problems with silver coins, copper is easy but it takes some time at photoshop and constant comparing with the coin in hand, but silver and gold is just horrible for me. Please see a silver coin below with some reddish colour that I could not get rid off without destroying the nature oif the coin.

Burak
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« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2006, 05:40:58 am »

The problem is that  we see coins but also the  coins see us!  An object is visible because it
reflects the light.
I made experiments with a stand: coins are flat and lifeless. Each coin requires an idividual
approach. Rotate the coin to the right or to the left (only to several degrees)  and you can see how the expression of the
emperor will change. You may said: one needs a standard. It is true and not true because each master had his own vision and
and put his own individual imprint. Similarly, the direction of light, deep or shallow shadows do metter.
You cannot compare the coin in hand and on the screen, by many reasons, even because the brain processes these images differently.

Dealers who have a need to handle hundred  at some point decide to take photos  using a stand. I mentioned once the example
of Ancient Treasures.  I enjoyed  their photos when they were  individually adjusted. Now they are standard and ugly.

In fact, I like some  color shadows on  silver: it may be your tee short or furniture. It is quite normal: you look at coins
and coins look at you. 
   
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« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2006, 03:45:23 pm »

Hi Pat,

What a great piece of advice, an improvised "light table" arangement.

Below is my current photo set up, no tripod but the right number of Numismatic Literature volumes from the ANS!

I used to just photograph against white paper but have started to use a piece of glass from a picture frame (no non reflective coating) on a white oven dish.

The bulb in the desk lamp is a daylight bulb.

Regards,

Mauseus
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« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2006, 12:10:51 am »

What Istinpolin does and what Mauseus does both are great, only Istinpolin wanted to get rid of contguous shadows, and that is what the improvised light table does.  Once Tacrolimus sent me a picture of his set up, and I think he had glass on some blocks, or on the cannisters that 35mm film came in; Doug Smith uses dowels much as Istinpolin uses nails (!): the glass is much easier.  The oven dish (any size you wish, so long as it's flat bottomed) and the glass (any size you wish, so long as it securely rests on the oven dish) were used because that oven dish had been in the house for many years, but food sticks to oven glass, so I was glad to find a new use for it.  You also could use a white enamel pan, such as we used for developer in making black-and-white photo prints, or a white box that a shirt or handkerchiefs had come in, or writing paper, so long as it was strong enough to support the glass securely, without wobbling.  The opaque white glass dish seems to work very well, and I'd rather use it for photography than for baking lasagna and then trying to get it clean!
The lamp: almost any lamp can be made to work, but you might want to put something in front to diffuse it (as you like).  A lamp that burns cool is kinder to your camera and makes you sweat less.  But your camera has WHITE BALANCE.  This is a pre-set done over white paper or a gray card, perfectly neutral, 18% reflectivity, from the camera shop.  Without performing white balance first, you will get those peachy and purple and ochre colored coins!  Yuck!  It is so much work to try to normalize them in Photoshop and requires some skill, too.  Make the camera do it.  That is why it comes with a computer chip and software instructions built into it.  See the owner's manual, or consult with a friend who owns the same kind of camera.  It is no longer necessary to endure the agonies of buying different film emulsions.  Numerianus is right, too; a delicate tinge of environmental reflected color, whether from a red tee-shirt or from the green leafy tree outside your window, can show that your coin is in a real-life space.  These, however, need to be avoided for publications.  I took my advice from: (1) the ground glass over a light table we used to use for photographing sherds and coins, (2) everything Doug Smith wrote on his web site as cameras evolved (and half his stuff is home-made), and (3) the advice I got from Barry Murphy, who knows what CNG et al. want.  Then I took what I had and imitated.  A copy stand is a great help, and one can be bought at no great cost; you need a rather small one, not the huge ones for copying from large books and posters.
If you want to see a new 'portrait' just taken of a real silver coin, of good silver, see my Corinth stater just posted under Rupert's in Greek Coins.  With a shiny coin, the glass over the dish comes out gray, just as you see.
Pat L.
P.S. My glass is 12" X 12", which is similar to 30cm X 30cm, but it could be smaller, depending on the dish/box.
Paintbucket is a 'tool' in Adobe Photoshop.  Paintbrush just makes a daub, but Paintbucket, after choosing the hue you want, fills in the whole background (or the whole area enclosed, if that's what you need), adhering nicely to the difference in hues and levels.  Where there are shadows on a dark ground, it 'eats' them, or white areas on a white ground, too.  That is what the raised glass prevents.
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« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2006, 10:48:11 am »

Istinpolin:

If you still want to do it your way, rather than follow the valuable advice above, you can "crop" out the shadows by using the "Pen" tool in Photoshop 7.0...it is slow but fairly precise. Click "anchor points" around the coin's edge (or even the shadow), select the encircled area via "Window" > "Paths" > click on right pointing arrow, click "Make selection" and click "Copy" and "Paste" the image into a new window with white background or, if you encircled the shadow, click delete.
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Istinpolin
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« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2006, 09:09:17 am »

Ok

First thanks to Pat. Indeed woderful advice. Also thanks to the moderators for making this one sticky, as I am sure it will help many people.

I have followed your advice Pat. I have bought a 75watt fluorescent light. One of those that use a long bulb. It is pretty powerful. This one is pretty flexible and can bent almost any way, so I can adjust the light according to my needs. My camera is good to detect this and it uses a scale from -2 to +2. I always get it to 0 for copper coins, +0.3 for silver and -0.3 for gold coins. I have bought a smaller oven dish than Pat has, mine is 12 by 19 cm and the dish is 3cm deep. I have bought a picture frame for 1 Pound and am just using the glass of it. I melted shoe laces around it so I do not cut myself. I am a pyromaniac, you can just use rubber as well.

Below you can see my results. Now because I have started with Maximinus I I will use the same coin. The first one is the same image above, where I used my primitive method. Then you will see the coin with the new method, the last image is the same as the second but paintbucket was used on it and I added some writing and my logo.

Thanks again Pat, this is the end of the reddish colour frustration and it all cost me only 17 Pounds Sterling. I did not buy a copy stand. The oven dish and the frame is small, so I can still put under the tripod, and elevate the whole dish to bring it closer to the lense. I looked for some copystands (mainly Kaiser here) but they are really expensive. I was offered one for 200 Pounds and thought I rather pass on that. But I am very happy with the results that you can see below.

Best wishes,
Burak
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Istinpolin
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« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2006, 09:11:58 am »

There are universes of difference of the images of the same coin. The old lamp just gave me a horrible reddish colour. The new one well rocks.

The image below will show the same coin but I made the background black and added some writing.
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« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2006, 09:26:54 am »

EXCELLENT!
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« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2006, 04:17:21 pm »

No professor ever had a better student!  Congratulations, as Pete said.  Pat L.
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« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2006, 03:04:14 am »

Well, in Turkey we say, a good student can only emerge from good teachers. I am sure this applies everywhere.

Thanks Pat A LOT.

Below are 2 more examples of this technique. My 2 favorite non-Ottoman coins.

Best wishes,
Burak
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« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2006, 06:31:25 am »

The only thing I have to take photos is a SONY Handycam w/ a Carl Zeiss Lens and Optical 20x.  I seem to get pretty good resolution with the bronzes, but am getting too much reflection on my silvers.  I have seen lots of advice on photographing coins.  My question is, does anyone have a similar Handycam who could give me advice on how to use it?   Also, I am using a desk lamp with a soft bulb 75 watts.  Do flourescent bulbs do the trick better?  If so, I can pick-up a small flourescent lamp at the local Walgreens!  I have included photos I have taken of one of my silvers (sorta shiny and fuzzy), and one of my bronzes (decent if I manipulate the background to the stark white).  The first of each is the original photo.  The second is using photoshop (Irfanview) to manipulate the photos.  Let me know which you think is better.  I suppose I expected better resolution on the coins, but often I need to mute the light source to ease the shine, and it comes out looking "fuzzy" or out of focus.  I will try to take a few photos using the raised glass on the white pyrex dish method.

Best, Noah
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« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2006, 12:06:28 pm »

Another question I have is:  How do you make the background for a coin a solid color (i.e. white, black, blue, etc.)?  I want to make all my coins have the same background so that my gallery is more uniform.

Best, Noah
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« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2006, 12:39:48 pm »

 
          Ave Noah,
 
  As Pat had said above (easy to lose among all the other excellent tips and careful instructions), use the ‘Paintbucket’ tool in PhotoShop or similar image editing s/w: *
 
   “Paintbucket is a 'tool' in Adobe Photoshop.  Paintbrush just makes a daub, but Paintbucket, after choosing the hue you want, fills in the whole background (or the whole area enclosed, if that's what you need), adhering nicely to the difference in hues and levels.  Where there are shadows on a dark ground, it 'eats' them, or white areas on a white ground, too.


   “I want to make all my coins have the same background so that my gallery is more uniform.
 
   I Really want to do the same thing here too – which I will when finally able to re-photograph my entire collection.
  After seeing those Galleries with such good style and uniformity of presentation, looking ay mine is just …. embarrassing.   Embarrassed
 
   Best,
   Tia
 
 
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« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2006, 01:15:30 pm »

This is from another thread but holds true here:

I am using black now...the black I get from keeping the scanner lid open...that also gives you more realistic lighting though I am still experimenting...I think I need to do color correction because I seem to be getting a bit of yellowing...you can also mess with brightness/contrast and levels to bring out detail that is lost in scan....I scan at around 300 dpi then knock it down from there...

if you want to cut the background out of a coin scan in PS you can use either the area select tool (magic wand 'w') with tolerence set pretty high 20-30? until you get the whole background and pretty tight on the coin edges...if you want to set it higher you can tighten it from there by going to select/modify/expand (or contract)...or you can use the polygonal lasso tool and trace the edges of each side BEFORE you put them together (its easier that way) then select inverse....then you can either use the paint bucket to put in a new color or you cant cut the old and have white (if background set to white which is usual)....your two coin halves will be layers at this point so you can use the paint bucket on the background layer (again...usually white is default) to make any color you want...

Scan with scanner lid open...flip coin...scan again...scan 200-300 dpi

Cut one...new document paste....double the width of your canvas...cut other side...paste.

Fit them up..crop canvas down to how you like it....merge layers...(here is where you can use the above instruction from taking off background if you dont want it...at this point you should have 2 coin layers and a background layer)

Use sample (clone tool) to get rid of any spots you might have gotten in the scan if you are keeping the background black from scan.

You might want to do a little brightness contrast, levels adjustment or color balance (in PS its image/adjustment)

Make sure your physical size is acceptable (image/image size) Then save here while still high resolution just in case.

Then you will want to go to image/image size and knock down the DPI to 72 DPI then go to file/save for web (make sure you have it set for .JPEG, maximum, 100 Quality and optimized checked)...if your physical size is to small...go to your history pallete, erase the last step and try 100 dpi, 120dpi until you get the screen size you want...(do NOT bump up the physical size once you have  lowered the resolution or you will get pixelation) **Always try to get you canvas size how you want it early...I am trying to keep it at the same size for every coin...what I will do is take my last coin I did...select all...delete...save under the name of the new coin...and lay my NEW coin out on that canvas so I know the size is correct.

That is how I prepared the 2 top examples though I am going to knock some size off them still and I still want to do some color correction...I am still in testing stage so...I am open to suggestions...I was thinking when i am done I am going to write down all the steps in a document that can be posted for people....
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« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2006, 10:12:33 pm »

Tia and DruMAX, thanks for the info.  I don't want to purchase Photoshop, so I just downloaded Picasa2 from Google.  It is free!  I just highlighted the coins enough to make the background white, then I used my Microsoft editing software (which came with the laptop) to adjust the contrast, brightness, color (for bronzes), grayscale (for silvers), and so on.  The coins look much better, but the real problem is that my handycam Sony camcorder does not give me high resolution to begin with.  The coins look pretty good when viewed at a medium size, but look quite "fuzzy" when enlarged to fill the screen.  Anyway, I am quite content with this method and will use it.  The link to my gallery is under my signature.  Check it out, I quite enjoy having the uniform backgrounds instead of a hodge-podge of colors and contrasts that take away from the beauty of the coins.

Best, Noah
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« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2006, 01:13:14 pm »

I have been trying out a cheap variation of Pat's system, something a bit less high-tech.  I have a small plastic food container.  The bottom is lined with shiny aluminium foil.  Inside part of the (clear) lid I have taped a rectangle of one ply of Kleenex man-sized tissue. (White.)

The light that illuminated the coin is a small desk lamp.  I have taped two plies of the same tissue over the end, (clear of the bulb) to diffuse the light.

The other lamp is pointing into the container and provides the background illumination when reflected onto the tissue. 

Putting the tissue inside the lid (1) keeps it clean and free of dust and (2) keeps it just far enough away from the area of focus that no textured effect can occur.

This makes bronze coins easy to do with a white background.  The paint bucket works fine with them.  Silver is harder, because the paint bucket has a tendency to paint shiny parts of the edge of the coin.  I have used select/color range, then go into quick mask mode and paint over the area of the coin to deselect it, then back to normal mode and just paint everything else white.

Here's the setup .. and an example photo.  The photo is the same coin you can see on the setup.  It's not perfect, but it's OK.

Costs:

Food container: GBP 1.50
Lamps: 2 at GBP 10.00
Photoshop .. hmm.  OK, this one does blow the budget a bit!
Camera:  This too.

Bill
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« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2006, 01:15:36 pm »

More on this system:

- Set the exposure before turning on the second lamp.
- Take the photo in "raw" mode and use the photoshop raw plugin to get the correct white balance and ensure no blowouts or black sections.   (Though if you get good results without this, why bother?)

Bill
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« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2006, 02:21:30 pm »

Yes, I think you are right that I need to work on the exposure a bit more. 

That is an excellent photo of a great coin.  I find a black background much easier to work with and usually nicer looking, too.   For example:  this one was taken on top of a screw against a black velvet background.  (The screw has some rubberised tape on its head.)

Bill
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« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2006, 02:36:19 pm »

Looks good though I wonder if it isnt as bit over illuminated...

Here's a re-working of the same original photo - the re-working is made possible by taking the original in a RAW format.  Does this look better?

It always takes me a few tries with a new method of taking the photos before I get the best way to process them.

Bill
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« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2006, 03:17:45 pm »

Silver is harder.  Amen, to that.  The problem with Paint Bucket I solve by having all the light on when I take the exposure.  In the old days, we used to illuminate the bounce / light table as you describe only after taking the exposure from the object.  But with denarii, if I expose with the bounce light (back light) already on, too, I get a gray background, and I find that, for silver that protects both the glints off shiny silver and the black of contour shadows.
Admirable work, Bill (in particular).  Doug Smith would approve, I'm sure.  The tissue below the plastic lid is brilliant.  Pat L.
Your method with silver works better than mine.
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« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2006, 03:37:09 pm »

I think I cope with bronze coins quite well, but I still have much problems with silver. And I look to the pictures of some international auctions with envy! See this one from Tkalec


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« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2006, 11:03:15 pm »

22 12 03 AR denarius  Caracalla, laureatem draoed bust to r.  ANTONINVS    AVGVSTVSRev., Salus, stg. l., resting her left on scepter-like staff, her snake climbing up it, with her r. raising to her feet a kneeling female person before her.  SAL GEN HVM, but the kneeling figure does not look neuter or masculine as Genus, Generis, n. would suggest.  RIC 42, marked S.  Among the young heir's more interesting reverse types.

I love this coin.  I got it just in time to send it out as a Christmas card to my more open-minded friends, and it was one of the first coins I photographed with my, then new, Nikon 5700.  I still like the gray that comes from placing silver on a transparent surface above a white dish, but look what happens when you use a lidded plastic dish and you don't think of inserting moonmoth's white tissue!  Nubbly.  Why does it have to be black OR white?
Pat L.
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