Foundation deposits: was there a public ceremony?

[rjohara]

Among the sources of datable ancient coins are foundation deposits: coins that were set into the foundation of a building (such as a temple) when the building was built. The foundation deposit under the temple of Artemis at Ephesus is a famous example, containing a large group of early electrum coins.

I was wondering about the practice of making foundation deposits. Do we have any historical/literary documentation that describes the practice? Something along the lines of, "The people assembled at noon, and after the soothsayer read some entrails, the king took a handful of change from his pocket and tossed it in the hole, just before the crane lowered the cornerstone in place." 

I know foundation deposits pre-date coins, and often contain jewelery and other valuables beside coins. I'm just wondering if we know anything about the ceremony--if there was one--surrounding the placing of a deposit.

RJO

[Robert_Brenchley]

The idea was probably to make a sacrifice of something valuable, so it would presumably have been accompanied by prayers and some form of ceremony, but I don't know whether there are any actual records.

[Bill Perry]

The tradition of foundation deposits stretches back to the first major builders - the Egyptians (and I mean MAJOR builders).  The greeks probably adopted that tradition from them, the Romans adopted it from them, and most other cultures adopted it from them (George Washington used it ). A web reference for the Egyptians would be

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/foundation.htm

for the Greeks (indirectly) showing other than coins or metals but actually valuable texts...

http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/PAAI_Misc_Finds.html

and the romans I'm sure you have your own references on as you brought it up here

[wolfgang336]

Not just temples either... Ships often had a coin inserted between the mast and the hull.

Evan

[Heliodromus]

From collecting coins as a kid in England, I remember reading that more than one of the 1933 pennies (one of the famous rarities of British coin collecting) had been placed in the foundations of buildings.

I just learned something new by searching for a reference to this... the few 1933 pennies (~6-7) that were made were specifically issed by the mint in response to requests for "foundation coins" for that precise purpose!

http://www.royalmint.com/RoyalMint/web/site/Corporate/Corp_museum/txt_1933penny.asp

Ben

[wolfgang336]

Most sailing yachts still have them somewhere in the hull, not to mention the Canadian Olympic hockey tradition of placing a "Loonie" (One dollar coins, loon on reverse) underneath the ice at centre ice. People are still as superstitious as we were three thousand years ago!

Evan

[rjohara]

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/foundation.htm
http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/PAAI_Misc_Finds.html

Those are great references - many thanks.

and the romans I'm sure you have your own references on as you brought it up here

I don't -- what do you recommend? (Not everybody collects Roman you know.  ) Did Vitruvius provide a description of a foundation ceremony somewhere?

[rjohara]

From collecting coins as a kid in England, I remember reading that more than one of the 1933 pennies (one of the famous rarities of British coin collecting) had been placed in the foundations of buildings.
I just learned something new by searching for a reference to this... the few 1933 pennies (~6-7) that were made were specifically issed by the mint in response to requests for "foundation coins" for that precise purpose!

http://www.royalmint.com/RoyalMint/web/site/Corporate/Corp_museum/txt_1933penny.asp

Another great reference. Do you suppose there are any buildings out there that may be worth less than the penny buried under their foundations?   

[rjohara]

Not just temples either... Ships often had a coin inserted between the mast and the hull.

It was an example of this that first got me thinking about the subject (see below). Was this in fact an ancient practice as well? Do we have remains of Greek or Roman ships still with coins embedded in them?

News Advisory:

WHAT: Keel Laying and Ancient Coin Ceremony Mark Milestone for First of 10 New Tankers Being Built at South Philadelphia Shipyard

WHEN: Friday, Oct. 28, 11 a.m.

WHERE: Aker Philadelphia Shipyard, Inc. (APSI) (formerly known as Kvaerner Philadelphia Shipyard), 2100 Kitty Hawk Ave., Philadelphia, Pa. 19112

DETAILS: Assembly begins in the dry dock under the Goliath crane on the keel section of the first of 10 product tankers being built. In keeping with ancient shipbuilding tradition, there will be a coin ceremony in which representatives from Aker and its leasing partner, Overseas Shipholding Group (NYSE: OSG) will place several lucky coins in the massive keel section as symbols of good luck and safe travels. The coins, under the enormous weight of the steel, will be affixed to the hull for the life of the vessel.

[wolfgang336]

Do we have remains of Greek or Roman ships still with coins embedded in them?

I'm sure we do, otherwise we probably wouldn't have the tradition, nor the knowledge of the practise. Unfortunately, I really have no idea where I heard about it. Coins had a large role in luck in the daily going-ons of the ancient world. Coins were placed on the eyes / in the mouths of the dead to ensure a decent afterlife.

Evan

[Manzikert]

Hi

With reference to the 1933 pennies, two of them were put under foundation stones laid by George V in Leeds.

In September 1970, the Church of St. Cross at Middleton near Leeds was damaged by thieves who managed to remove and steal the 1933 penny buried under its cornerstone with a pickaxe. As a precaution, the other church removed its coin, and sold it by auction at Sotheby's on the 24th November 1972.

Best wishes

Alan

[Bill Perry]

I do not believe you can find an ancient reference - unless some secret of the stone masons can be found As I'm sure its in building traditions for thousands of years. For sure though you can see where archeology experts go looking for them as soon as they start an excavation - look in this article of an egyptian fort and search for the word foundation

http://www.deltasinai.com/sepe-10.htm

To a lesser degree you can see that escavating roman buildings they still expect to find them:

http://www.archaeology.org/interactive/sagalassos/field04/domestic8.html

and of course modern day like the building of queen elizabeth II - if its built there is a tradition (though I think cars got away from that sort of thing But ships and buildings still have them!):

http://www.nqsouthern.com/digitalpublication/digitalpublications/index.cfm?dpid=89&section_id=547&article_id=1546

And before you ask - I'm an expert on nothing - I'm just good with computer searches And learn what I post at the same time - so its very educational - so I thank YOU!

[Ecgþeow]

I don't know if this is true, but I remember hearing that one ancient society would bury live people under the cornerstones of temples.  It might have been the Hawaiians that buried them under the luakini heiaus (human-sacrifice temples dedicated to the god of war).  Maybe it was another Polynesian group.  But it interesting that the same idea would show in completely unrelated cultures (one more extreme than the other, but the same idea of sacrifice nevertheless). 

[*Alex]

Were coins not also nailed to the masts of ships "for luck". This must account for some of those ancients which are found with holes in them.

Alex.

[Robert_Brenchley]

I imagine the story in 'Moby Dick' about Captain Ahab nailing the coin to the mast and promising it to the man who sights the White Whale has some basis in fact. Melville had sailed on a whaler, and tends to get things right.

[Ecgþeow]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/4686056.stm

15th century french coini embedded in ship's keel.