Author Topic: out of place series of Antoninus (Read 29110 times)

Diederik · « **Reply #25 on:** January 15, 2006, 10:03:41 am »

Got another mail from them just now:

Ich habe den Denar Pius sofort zurückgenommen und werde es am Montag bei Münzhandel Brand in Stuttgart überprüfen lassen.Habe über allen Münzen die ich besitze eine Rechnung.Bitte teilen Sie mir mit was noch Ihre Meinung nach,nicht echt sein kann.Die von mir gekaufte Ware von Ihnen ,bis jetzt,können Sie jederzeit an mir zurückschicken und ich überweise Ihr Geld sofort wieder zurück,egal wann Sie es gekauft haben.Bitte melden.Gruß

In my hurry to inform you, I forgot to deliver the German tanslation:
Good Day! You must be mistaken. The pieces I present are bought from German dealers and on auctions. You bought something from me earlier. Is that a fake too? When you are not satisfied with the items you bought, tell us and you will get an immediate refund, no matter how long ago you purchased it. Please contact us. Thank you + regards.

The second mail:
I immediately took the Pius denarius out of the auction and will have it checked on Monday at Brand coindealer in Stuttgart. I have invoices of all the coins I posses. Tell me what, in your opinion cannot be real. The items bought up to now, by you from me, you can any time send back to me (SIC) and I will transfer your money back to you, no matter when you bought it. Please contact us. Regards

I think I will mail them this thread; do you agree?

Frans

postvmvs · « **Reply #26 on:** January 15, 2006, 03:30:24 pm »

Quote

It would be interesting to know now whether the other mid-grade denarii in this lot are all false too.

Two more of those coins (making a 3 out of 5 fake so far) I found in old auctions by 'empire_gallery': upper left and upper right.

postvmvs · « **Reply #27 on:** January 15, 2006, 03:47:47 pm »

I found the thread to the Republican fakes that lead to the Fake Reports entry for the one with the distinctive banker's mark damage ( https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=22644.0 ). In that thread the middle right coin from Rupert's lot is shown (here) as a cast fake (making 4 out of 5 confirmed fake).

Diederik · « **Reply #28 on:** January 20, 2006, 05:17:29 pm »

Another wailing mail from Spes_Publica:
Ich habe eine ähnliche Münze wie Ihre gekauft von Numizmatik Lanz ,mit Echtheitszusicherung von profi Numizmatiker und ich habe dafür 185.-? bezahlt.Wie kann die Münze die Sie verkauft haben auch echt sein und die bessere Qualität als meine haben und troztdem 39.-? kosten?

I bought a similar coin as yours from Lanz Numismatics, with a certificate of autheticity from a professional dealer and I paid 185? ((Euro's?)) for it. How can the coin you sold ((

)) be real as well and be in a better quality as mine and despite all that cost 39? ((SIC))

I have not deigned myself worthy of giving a reply to that mail.

Frans

postvmvs · « **Reply #29 on:** January 20, 2006, 06:47:47 pm »

I've found another seller on eBay selling one of the cast fakes. A Julia Titi denarius sold by 'spes-pvblica' and 'victoriantiquities', a seller not yet mentioned in this thread. I'll just refer back to the iceberg picture...

[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] 'victoriantiquities' for $366
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] 'spes-pvblica' for 141 EUR

Quote

ich habe dafür 185.- bezahlt.Wie kann die Münze die Sie verkauft haben auch echt sein und die bessere Qualität als meine haben und troztdem 39.- kosten?

If I understand this correctly, the seller is arguing that a genuine coin would cost X and since you paid only k*X (where k<<1) how can you expect a genuine coin?

Diederik · « **Reply #30 on:** January 20, 2006, 07:15:44 pm »

Yeah, only 'verkauft' should be 'gekauft' or something like that; I only bought one coin at $21, so I don't really understand.
I think the gist of this non-native speaker German message is indeed 'how can you expect a real coin at this price?

Very disturbing, non-Western thought.

Frans

jbaran · « **Reply #31 on:** January 21, 2006, 08:54:32 am »

Quote from: postvmvs on January 20, 2006, 06:47:47 pm

I've found another seller on eBay selling one of the cast fakes. A Julia Titi denarius sold by 'spes-pvblica' and 'victoriantiquities', a seller not yet mentioned in this thread. I'll just refer back to the iceberg picture...

victorianantiquities has long been associated with legion_8. Their auctions are both in the same format, they just use a differnt color book as their background.

Joe

postvmvs · « **Reply #32 on:** February 01, 2006, 06:40:44 pm »

Found a link to another eBay seller: 'empire_gallery' and 'imperatorial'.

Nerva, denarius, Sacrificial implements
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (empire_gallery)
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (imperatorial)

Trajan, denarius, Mars
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (empire_gallery)
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (imperatorial)

Faustina Sr., denarius, Peacock
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (empire_gallery)
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (imperatorial)

Furius Crassipes, 84 BC, Roman Republican, denarius
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (empire_gallery)
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (imperatorial)

These cast fakes are starting to become like old friends -- I see them all the time!

EDIT: Fake Reports filed: Nerva,
[BROKEN LINKS REMOVED BY ADMIN]

Also, the Trajan Mars denarius is to be found in a FORVM members gallery (https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-12851). I had noticed and commented on the coin several days ago, before finding the duplicate linked above that removes any doubt.

And some links between 'spes-pvblica' and 'imperatorial':

L Censorinus, 82 BC, Roman Republican, denarius, Apollo
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (spes-pvblica)
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (imperatorial)
The coin descriptions in the above two auctions are the same, right down to the punctuation.

L Procilius,. 80 BC, Roman Republican, denarius, Jupiter
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (spes-pvblica)
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (imperatorial)
The coin descriptions in the above two auctions are the same, right down to the punctuation and 'sheild'[sic] misspelling.

A. Albinus Sp.f. 96 BC, Roman Republican, denarius
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (spes-pvblica)
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (imperatorial)

Numerianus · « **Reply #33 on:** February 02, 2006, 01:56:00 am »

I am rather scared by the above discussion. If I understand correctly,
at first posts there was coin under discussion which was out of suspicion and only by existence of another identical
specimen it was identified as a fake? Does this means that the ``bad guys" produce in mass fakes difficult to
recognize, at least, by dealers pic? If it is so, this should be the most dangerous attack because
it targets the relatively safe market sector of cheap Roman silver... It seems that recently spotted fakes in auctions
reputed sellers may have the same origin.
I wonder why this discussion is going so quietly...

ecoli · « **Reply #34 on:** February 02, 2006, 03:29:04 am »

Well, at least one forum member seem to have one in his/her possession...I wonder if the coin is deceptive in hand?

Numerianus · « **Reply #35 on:** February 02, 2006, 05:20:59 am »

Could these guys be active several years ago under other names?

Massanutten · « **Reply #36 on:** February 03, 2006, 12:29:35 pm »

Like many, I checked my collection to see if any of these sellers came up. I found six from victoriantiquities, all Constantinian era Providentia campgates and all perfectly 'real'. Also found two from legion_8 and from the same era. Average cost was about 5 bucks each. All were purchased summer/fall of 2004. I presume at the time that they were selling low end coppers to build their reputation. Maybe they still salt them into their sales.

Federico Albertini · « **Reply #37 on:** February 03, 2006, 02:59:17 pm »

Me too...

Please have a look at my post 'victoriantiquities' (3 feb 06) and to post your opinions on the coins.
Of course I paid slightly more than 5 bucks each

(

Best, Federico

postvmvs · « **Reply #38 on:** February 04, 2006, 12:11:26 pm »

Another

:

Trajan, denarius, Roma
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (antiquarica)
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (2x empire_gallery)

Trajan, denarius, Felicitas
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (antiquarica)
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (2x empire_gallery)

Antoninus Pius & Marcus Aurelius, denarius
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (antiquarica)
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (empire_gallery)

Trajan, denarius, Dacian captive
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (antiquarica)
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (empire_gallery & spes-pvblica)

In response to Numerianus and ecoli, I've attached a nice clear image from the Dacian captive denarius auction by antiquarica (which sold for $125). In my opinion it is a dangerous fake and would be deceptive in hand. If it weren't for the duplicate coins already sold by empire_gallery and spes-pvblica this fake would probably go unnoticed.

postvmvs · « **Reply #39 on:** February 04, 2006, 06:07:59 pm »

Another:

Trajan, denarius, COS V P P SPQR OPTIMO PRINC
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (ancientauctionhouse.com "AAH")
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-1959 (2x empire_gallery)

Rupert · « **Reply #40 on:** February 04, 2006, 06:57:12 pm »

This is very interesting. In this case, I think AAH were taken in themselves, since as far as I know AAH is a reliable seller. You see these damn fake denarii travel far!

Rupert

Massanutten · « **Reply #41 on:** February 05, 2006, 03:49:36 am »

I've sent AAH a message advising him of the problem with his sale.

Massanutten · « **Reply #42 on:** February 06, 2006, 07:14:39 pm »

Dimitre (AHH) stood by the authenticity of his coin. I do not know if he followed up on the links that I provided to him. In my reply to his answer, I pointed out that the coins shown here (including his) all show the same flan defect on the reverse left field just below the second P of PP in the inscription. No other answer was provided by him. Obviously this forgery ring is extremely dangerous, though I think Dimitre is as much a victim of it as any other that has been duped.

postvmvs · « **Reply #43 on:** February 08, 2006, 06:38:54 pm »

More from imperatorial:

Vespasian, Eagle
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (imperatorial)
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (spes-pvblica)

Septimius Severus, Mars
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (imperatorial)
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] ('empire_gallery' and 'spes-pvblica')

Macedon. Under Romans. After 168 BC. AR Tetradrachm
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (imperatorial)
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] (empire_gallery)

slokind · « **Reply #44 on:** February 08, 2006, 06:48:34 pm »

I am sure that Dimitre was very put out (PO'd, in fact) at someone having passed that one off on him! Pat L.

Massanutten · « **Reply #45 on:** February 08, 2006, 07:37:57 pm »

Pat...... Not so much that he pulled it. It's currently at $48 with about two hours to go. Sad.
Bob

postvmvs · « **Reply #46 on:** February 19, 2006, 05:20:25 pm »

I've created a website of these cast fakes. Currently very rough, more to follow.

http://mriess.acm.jhu.edu/castfakes/

Federico Albertini · « **Reply #47 on:** February 22, 2006, 03:26:43 pm »

Great job as always, Postvmvs.

F.

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Author Topic: out of place series of Antoninus (Read 29110 times)

jbaran

Massanutten

Federico Albertini

Massanutten

Massanutten

Massanutten

Federico Albertini