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Author Topic: Duplicate Image - e-bay fake?  (Read 7495 times)

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Offline Gilgamesh

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Duplicate Image - e-bay fake?
« on: November 01, 2004, 10:22:07 pm »
Republican denarius sold e-bay 30 Sep 04 by imperatorial in US appears to be re-offered by biggyg2 in the UK.

I bought the earlier piece and have studies my scans of it against both sales images and they appear to be identical pieces as far as dies, striking position, wear and individual markings such as the scratching at 8.00 on the obverse and the bump effect at 12.00 on the reverse. Rather improbable on a republican piece - like snowflakes and fingerprints.

Would be interested to hear others opinions.
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Offline curtislclay

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Re:Duplicate Image - e-bay fake?
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2004, 10:39:39 pm »
Yes indeed, no two genuine ancient coins can be identical with each other in the way these are.  
At least one of them, probably both, must unfortunately be fakes!
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Offline Bluefish

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Re:Duplicate Image - e-bay fake?
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2004, 08:11:08 am »
Both coins are shown here:
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Offline Numerianus

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Re:Duplicate Image - e-bay fake?
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2004, 08:31:34 am »
The  auction is ended in urgence- its seems that  both coins are fakes, indeed. By the way, the bidding history for the first one was not very exciting: the bidders were
suspicious.  

Offline Gilgamesh

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Re:Duplicate Image - e-bay fake?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2004, 07:07:50 pm »
Many thanks for the responses on this. I was not suspicious of the photo for the first auction but was a little when I received the piece. I have been collecting for a long time and have spotted fakes before. I would have treated it as paranoia if the second photo hadn't turned up so fortuitously. I should have added in description that the obverse scratch at 8.00 and reverse bump at 12.00 are at corresponding sides of the flan. I think that, along with the improbability of two pieces turning up at the same time, rules out an ancient forgery. This coin is younger than I am!

I forwarded a notice to biggyg2 who replied that he had withdrawn the second item and was returning it to his supplier for refund.

One expects to see valuable items being forged, or even general pieces in excellent condition, but it is a big problem for average collectors if lower grade items are being put about.

I am intending to keep the piece rather than return it for refund. It has been a valuable yet cheap experience.
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Offline Gilgamesh

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Re:Duplicate Image - e-bay fake?
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2004, 03:14:34 am »
I was a little curious about the surface, particularly some very small 'bubbling' on the cheek that didn't appear to be from any corrosion. Doesn't show up in the photo's. The dolphin behind the neck 'seemed' wrong. It also looked as though the edge had been cleaned up seemingly by hammering after the piece was made. All very vague really which is why I prefered to think the piece was probably ok.

Sometimes, having studied so many pieces, one gets a feeling that is not really quantifiable. However, beginner or experienced, we can all be fooled, even the most reputable dealers.

I have also emailed the seller of the item I purchased and suggested to him that he might want to check his supplier against that of biggyg2. The probability of the two pieces appearing simultaneously without having been released recently and by the same person seems rather long odds.
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Offline Gilgamesh

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Re:Duplicate Image - e-bay fake?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2004, 01:00:10 am »
I hope adding this report to my original notification is the right procedure.

This same fake has just reappeared on e-bay via another dealer.

"Very interesting" as they say in the classics.
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Offline Numerianus

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Re:Duplicate Image - e-bay fake?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2004, 02:19:34 am »
I am very worried by this. Members of the board consider these
dealers as good guys, reliable, experienced and taking care about their reputation. Seemingly, they are in the same chain of supply. The fact observed
in this thread means that someone produces fakes that looks at hand as
authentic coins for even those who examined thoroughly thousand and thousand coins.  By the way, there is a striking difference in appearence and metal of coins coming from old collections and of the modern supply. One can explain this  by different methods of cleaning, smoothing, polishing etc; but it is a fact. It seems that quite a larger percent of coins traded in the range 30-50$
are suspicious.

The last coin looks "authentic" (less treated to get "wear") and if it will not in the row I could be easily mistaken.  

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re:Duplicate Image - e-bay fake?
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2004, 11:19:00 pm »
Numerianus,

None of these dealers is an ancient coin specialist known to me.  I would not expect a sometimes ancient coin eBay seller to know an ancient coin from a replica. No matter what their feedback is selling beenie bears and Lincoln pennies.  

This thread does not mean fakes look as good in hand.  Even when a fake does get by a dealer it does not mean it looks as good in hand.  Fakes can slip by because they just didn't look close enough everytime.  Stuff happens.  It does not mean the fake will fool anyone on close examination.    

This thread proves that it is very difficult to pedal many copies of a fake.  Fake sellers get caught.  The originator of this fake sold them to non-ancient coin specialist intentionally.  Now they know he or she is a bad source.  Will they buy more from the same source?  Maybe, but they will be worried and more careful.  How many times can this seller get away with this before he or she is finished?

Save the talk of metal and high percentages of suspicious coins for CFDL.
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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re:Duplicate Image - e-bay fake?
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2004, 11:36:01 pm »
There are a lot of fakes on eBay.  Buyer beware on eBay.  But this board is on FORVM ANCIENT COINS.  If you buy from FORVM, we guarantee authenticity.  If you want to talk about fakes and use the words "very worrying" or "large-scale distribution" I suggest you buy from FORVM and put your post on CDFL.  

The world is full of fakes, the sky is falling, posts will be deleted.  (This post refers to a post that was deleted.)
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Offline Jerome Holderman

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Re:Duplicate Image - e-bay fake?
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2004, 06:11:05 am »
It think Joes point is just that he does not want to see posts , that make it sound as though the entire ancient coin market is so flooded with fakes that every purchase should be suspect. And if you do feel that way then your best option is to buy all your coins from a reliable dealer who will stand behind them, and nobody does this better than Forvm.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re:Duplicate Image - e-bay fake?
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2004, 10:01:11 am »
jdholds has it right.  

We have had silly posts that said things such as "10% of ancient coins are fakes," for example.  Of course these posts were wrong and pure speculation by people without expertise.  I will never delete a post I believe is accurate.  But I will not allow misleading inaccurate posts to remain on the board.  

This board exists at least in part to help FORVM sell more ancient coins.  It is intended to bring new people to the hobby and increase the interest of existing collectors.  If you believed 10% of the coins in your collection were fake, would you continue to collect?  I will not allow inaccurate posts by inexperienced people that scare collectors away from the hobby.  
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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re:Duplicate Image - e-bay fake?
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2004, 01:32:21 pm »
I should hope not! I think the proportion of fakes on eBay is a good clue; its notoriously wide open to fraud, but would any level-headed person estimate the percentage of fakes as more than 5%? Personally I think its less than that.
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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re:Duplicate Image - e-bay fake?
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2004, 07:01:57 pm »
If you take out the Toronto group IDs and private auctions, it would almost certainly be less than 1% fakes even on eBay.    
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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re:Duplicate Image - e-bay fake?
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2004, 03:37:02 am »
Not only that, but a very large proportion of the fakes are being sold innocently by people with little or no knowledge of ancients. Its definitely a problem on eBay, but not a massive one. So how can it be a major problem with respectable dealers?
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