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Author Topic: what is this bronze small object  (Read 275 times)

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Offline Vladimir B2

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what is this bronze small object
« on: March 13, 2022, 12:30:07 pm »
thanks

Offline shanxi

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Re: what is this bronze small object
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2022, 12:58:26 pm »
There are a lot of similar objects on acsearch. It seem unclear what they are.

e.g. https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=6116675

Offline v-drome

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Re: what is this bronze small object
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2022, 01:32:19 pm »
Here is a Forum topic with some lead ones from Caesarea Maritima and information on an article by Lionel Holland:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=111630

Jimi

Offline Vladimir B2

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Re: what is this bronze small object
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2022, 03:40:30 pm »
thanks guys

Offline Mayadigger

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Re: what is this bronze small object
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2022, 05:05:44 pm »
Ave!

Bronze vessel decoration.
"Goodbye, Livia: never forget our marriage!"

Offline Vladimir B2

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Re: what is this bronze small object
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2022, 05:16:36 pm »
thanks but why on some sites its described as aes formatum r republic

Offline SC

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Re: what is this bronze small object
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2022, 05:27:26 pm »
There were some aes foratum in this shape but they are also know as vessel decoration - soldered to the side of thin-walled vessels.

They are much much more common as vessel decoration than aes formatum and the finds spots for aes formatum are fairly limited too.

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(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: what is this bronze small object
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2022, 08:02:35 pm »
There are bronze AE formatum cast shells, which were used as money. Lead cast shells were used as weights. Their use as vessel decorations is interesting. I was not aware of that. It makes sense because they would be fairly easy to cast and attractive.
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Offline SC

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Re: what is this bronze small object
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2022, 07:39:45 am »
They can really only be considered aes formatum if found in an Oscan-Latin context - i.e. central Italy 5th-3rd c BC.

By contrast they are a common decorative feature from at least the 2nd-4th centuries AD and are found throughout the Empire.

The vast majority that exist today are therefore most likely examples of the later decorations.

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Offline Vladimir B2

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Re: what is this bronze small object
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2022, 08:39:29 am »
thanks all

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: what is this bronze small object
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2022, 09:29:46 am »
They can really only be considered aes formatum if found in an Oscan-Latin context - i.e. central Italy 5th-3rd c BC.

By contrast they are a common decorative feature from at least the 2nd-4th centuries AD and are found throughout the Empire.

The vast majority that exist today are therefore most likely examples of the later decorations.

SC

AEs rude, AEs formatum, etc. including these shells are also found in hoards in Spain and Croatia. Bronze of any type also traded as money weight across the ancient world. I am not sure you are correct about the "vast majority" being later decoration. Forum has sold quite a few of them and I am 100% certain they were pre-coinage, not later decorations.
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Offline v-drome

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Re: what is this bronze small object
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2022, 01:17:28 pm »
If they were for applied decoration would it not make more sense for them to be hollow or hammered out so as to use less metal?

Offline Mayadigger

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Re: what is this bronze small object
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2022, 03:36:49 pm »
If they were for applied decoration, would it not make more sense for them to be hollow or hammered out so as to use less metal?
Ave!

Yes, that would make more sense, but they were not.

1st photo is the back of vine leaf decoration - Copper alloy; 48mm/56gm and big and that's heavy!
All that shiny stuff is the original Roman solder.

Over the years I have had 30 or more vine leaf wine vessel adornments (see 2nd photo for the various shapes) and only three that were shell-shaped like Vladimir's.
All of them had solder on the reverse for attaching to the vessel or bowl.

The only way to determine if Vladimir's shell is an AEs formatum or not is to clean off the reverse and look for the presence of residual solder.

Just my two cents worth.  :police:

Kevin
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Offline SC

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Re: what is this bronze small object
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2022, 07:45:50 am »
Just an alteration to your logic.  The only way to be certain it was for a vessel is the presence of solder.

The absence of solder does not indicate it is AES formatum, it would indicate it could be AES formatum, could be for a vessel with no solder remaining or used, or could be for some other purpose entirely.

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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: what is this bronze small object
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2022, 10:07:26 am »
All (or nearly all?) the AEs formatum examples I have handled are cast with a hollow back (like the actual shells).
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