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Author Topic: Vespasian NEP RED. AR, 20mm, 2.92g. Possible fake from known fake seller  (Read 1352 times)

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Earl M

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I have purchased this coin which I thought was a steal for $42.

However, upon closer inspection, several things stand out:
1. The font, especially on the letter "M," seems very abnormally fat.
2. The extremely fine style is a bit unusual for Vespasian.
3. The fields are very flat
4. The edges are split
5. Most damning, I suppose, is that it comes from a known fake seller, which I failed to notice before purchase.

Details:
AR Denarius
20mm
2.92g
appears to be a denarius variant of RIC 358, an aureus.


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Offline Meepzorp

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Hi EM,

For future reference, split edges are not an indicator of a fake coin unless the cracks/splits ae filled with material (metal).

Meepzorp

Earl M

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Thanks for the correction. In the fake respository I saw a few NEP REDs that had similar split edges, which seem to point to a similar workshop. Maybe.


Offline Jay GT4

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A modern fake unfortunately.

Earl M

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Coin returned for full refund now.

Offline cmcdon0923

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For future reference, split edges are not an indicator of a fake coin unless the cracks/splits are filled with material (metal).

Filled in cracks are often a giveaway for cast fakes, but aren't edge cracks like on this coin a possible sign of a pressed fake?


Craig

Offline antoninus1

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For future reference, split edges are not an indicator of a fake coin unless the cracks/splits are filled with material (metal).

Filled in cracks are often a giveaway for cast fakes, but aren't edge cracks like on this coin a possible sign of a pressed fake?


Craig

I agree, also to my knowledge these small edge cracks are typical of pressed fakes.

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Edge splits are common for some types, rare for others. More or less than the range of normal number of edge splits for the type can be an indicator the coin is fake. Comparing this coin to confirmed genuine examples, it has far more splits than normal. It is an indicator it is likely a pressed fake (this fake coin is very likely pressed). There are a lot of pressed fakes with excessive edge splits.
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Offline Din X

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It is a transfer die fake, mother was an authentic aureus!
Transfer dies are published in "counterfeits of Roman and Byzantine Gold coins", Sofia 2015  by Prokopov (Cover !)

Part of book is available legal online for free including this transfer die

https://www.academia.edu/11716750/COUNTERFEITS_OF_ROMAN_AND_BYZANTINE_GOLD_COINS

"1. VESPASIAN 80? Couple of nickel dies for AV Aureus. Obv. IMP CAES VESP AVG P M COS IIII, laureate head right.Rev. NEP RED, Neptune standing left, foot on globe, holding acrosto-lium & sceptre. RIC II, p. 20, No 46Specific features: Flaking of the obverse die at the periphery to 11h.; Horizontal scratch on the obverse to 3h.; Point below the globe in ex., on the reversе. Both coin dies were intensively used. This is indicated by the highly worn out surface. Such marks are clearly visible on photo No.1. They are on Vespasian’s head and around Neptune’s figure. On the reverse die - Neptune’s upright posture with his foot on the globe and holding acrostolium."

The fake of  "Earl M" was struck or more likely pressed with this transfer dies. There are transfer errors especially in the letters see for example the letter D of Nepred, the letter d is damaged in transfer dies and looks different as on authentic coins.
Prokopov has sadly added left under the picture of the mirrored die an authetnic coin with number 3 (he did not mention this and so implied that it was struck with this dies too which is not true) and on right side under the mirrored die is an imprint form the transfer dies.
Due to transfer loss, transfer errors and individual characteristics from the mother and recut details like part of the dotted border are many huge differences between the real ancient dies and the transfer dies !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have 2 imprints of the dies published by Prokopov


"The extremely fine style is a bit unusual for Vespasian."

You must be kidding, authentic coins from these dies exist and the style is 100% as it should be there exist more than enough authentic  coins from Vespasian with very good style and aureus dies were only cut by the best and most talented artists.

 

Offline Din X

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Now 2 authentic coin "same" dies as the authetnic mother, which was used/abused to produce transfer dies.

This 2 coins in this post are 100% authentic and one of these (upper one) is shown in Prokopov´s article although it shouldn´t be withotut mentioning that this coin is authentic !!!!

I am not sure if Prokopov was aware that all the dies he published in this article are transfer dies :(


Earl M

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It is a transfer die fake, mother was an authentic aureus!
Transfer dies are published in "counterfeits of Roman and Byzantine Gold coins", Sofia 2015  by Prokopov (Cover !)

Part of book is available legal online for free including this transfer die

https://www.academia.edu/11716750/COUNTERFEITS_OF_ROMAN_AND_BYZANTINE_GOLD_COINS

"1. VESPASIAN 80? Couple of nickel dies for AV Aureus. Obv. IMP CAES VESP AVG P M COS IIII, laureate head right.Rev. NEP RED, Neptune standing left, foot on globe, holding acrosto-lium & sceptre. RIC II, p. 20, No 46Specific features: Flaking of the obverse die at the periphery to 11h.; Horizontal scratch on the obverse to 3h.; Point below the globe in ex., on the reversе. Both coin dies were intensively used. This is indicated by the highly worn out surface. Such marks are clearly visible on photo No.1. They are on Vespasian’s head and around Neptune’s figure. On the reverse die - Neptune’s upright posture with his foot on the globe and holding acrostolium."

The fake of  "Earl M" was struck or more likely pressed with this transfer dies. There are transfer errors especially in the letters see for example the letter D of Nepred, the letter d is damaged in transfer dies and looks different as on authentic coins.
Prokopov has sadly added left under the picture of the mirrored die an authetnic coin with number 3 (he did not mention this and so implied that it was struck with this dies too which is not true) and on right side under the mirrored die is an imprint form the transfer dies.
Due to transfer loss, transfer errors and individual characteristics from the mother and recut details like part of the dotted border are many huge differences between the real ancient dies and the transfer dies !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have 2 imprints of the dies published by Prokopov


"The extremely fine style is a bit unusual for Vespasian."

You must be kidding, authentic coins from these dies exist and the style is 100% as it should be there exist more than enough authentic  coins from Vespasian with very good style and aureus dies were only cut by the best and most talented artists.

 

Sorry, I thought the fine style was unusual as most Vespasian, especially those aureus examples, have a somewhat scrunched-looking face. Just looked a bit off is all.

Close inspection of the smoothness of the fields tends to confirm that this was pressed and not struck.

Offline Din X

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"Close inspection of the smoothness of the fields tends to confirm that this was pressed and not struck."

Your fake has artificial wear, which can be easily identified by the very fine scratches especially visible on the reverse!
So the surface of your fake is now very different due to artificial wear as it was when the fake was minted.
And Transfer die fakes have always a soapier surface due to detail loss.

To the edge cracks, authentic coins can have strong edge cracks, too, you have to compare with many authentic coins from same emission to know how edge cracks can look on authentic coins from this issue and how not.

Why have fakes huge strong edge cracks?

1. planchet production, they cast a small pellet or hack a small part from a Silver bar and then they use a hammer to strike that/till it will have the shape of a planchet!
This methods were used in ancient times too by some mints at some specific times!
If they do not heat the Silver pellet before striking it with a hammer to planchet shape there is a high chance that edge cracks can appear on the fresh planchet!
Cold Silver is not so elastic as heated Silver.

2. minting, if they use a hydraulic press and use too much power to be sure that all details will be captured perfect
If they do not heat the planchet before minting, cold metal is not so elastic as warm metal and cold pressing or minting means higher chance to get edge cracks and stronger edge cracks.


IMHO pressing can be compared with a perfect horizontal strike with a hammer and such perfect strikes can be found of course even if extremely rare on ancient coins, too.
If you give me the dies enough planchets as the ones used for you fake and a hammer I can do you a similar strike, I will need many planchets but it is well possible especially if you want toi have such a perfect strike.
in ancient times they were under time pressure and so they did not care for perfect strikes but if you have enough time and the will to do such a perfect strike it should not be any real problem.

I have struck fakes which look pressed but are struck (they have for example slippage but strong edge cracks and very flat fields or I know the artist and he told me he is striking them).



 

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