Marc Antony Legion X

[Ken W2]

So, here's the coin I'm wondering if I can learn from.  Obviously, I don't know whether it's genuine or not.  But to me, it just doesn't look like a 2000 year old coin.  Especially where the surface meets the edge, that is a very regular "corner" with almost no nicks or imperfections from wear.  Also, when a coin is off center shouldn't the centering be equally off on both obverse and reverse ?

As I expand from uncleaned bronzes to denarii and Ants I need to learn how to better ID questionable coins, as obviously the price per coin goes way up.  I've read the "how tos" here and they are helpful, but without the coin in hand sometimes hard to apply. 

Thanks in advance for any input.

Ken   

[djmacdo]

Weight?

[Ken W2]

3.65 gr.

[dwarf]

Definitely a modern forgery.

Have a look on these coins (discussed in the Polish forum section)
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=123927.0

A lot of these coins were sold by a formely well-reputed dealer on ebay

Regards
Klaus

[Ken W2]

Klaus: thanks for the response. I do see the similarities between those coins and the one I asked about, and among those on the Polish board. As I noted above the main sign I see is the absence of wear and marks from circulation.  The flan just looks too regular. But from a design perspective it looks pretty good, but all I can do is compare photos. I hope I’m not missing something else that is obvious. Thanks again.
Ken

[Din X]

Your coin is die linked to this fakes.
Your Revers die is die linked to them, this two share the same revers die.
It seems like this forger has  produced many modern hand cut dies.
I assume that the macedon tetrobols with shield, Chersonesos hemidrachms (there are transfer die fakes other workshop, bad modern die fakes other workshop and good modern die fakes most likely this workshop) and this Legionary Denarii are made by this workshop.
My Chersonesos fakes form modern hand cut dies have silverchlorid (black) too like many of this legionary Denarii fakes.
It is real silverchlorid, I have removed it on some of my fake with ammonia water.

Picture 1+2 same coin, same revers as your coin
Picture 3+4 same coin, same revers as your coin

Picture 5 Chersonesos fakes I posted already to other board, which have silverchlorid, too and who share same problems as this macedon shield and legionary etc.

[DzikiZdeb]

So far we have not recorded Legio X reverse, but obverse die is obviously used to struck other coins. I. e. this XII legio false:

[Ken W2]

Thanks for all the responses. I can see the same flattening of the legs of the N, the slightly deformed loop of the P, and the alignment of the dots in the third i and the left leg of the V are the same.  So, that the same obverse die has been used with different reverse dies gives this coin away. But what would make this coin suspect if we didn’t have the body of knowledge about these dies?  If we only had this coin in hand or photos of this coin, what gives it away?

[DzikiZdeb]

But what would make this coin suspect if we didn’t have the body of knowledge about these dies?  If we only had this coin in hand or photos of this coin, what gives it away?

That's not only photos. Here's thread where you have explanations of owner of one of these falses: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=122807.0

But if we only have photos of stylistically correct die-linked Antony denarii of different legions, it would be suspect enough. How mint striking tens (or hundreds) of thousands denarii for each legion separately can have time to borrow dies between workshops? Even if that were the exception, not the rule. And what is the probability that after two years a tresure containing over one hundred such denarii will be found? No way.

[Din X]

These fakes have many many problems and it is most likely not so smart to mention all of them, because some of them can be fixed easily and so making it harder to detect such fakes in future if fakers get to know them.  

You can ask yourself for example, why many of these were offered by Bulgarian fake seller, who had 100% fakes for sale?
That authentic coins are for sale by fake sellers can be the sometimes the case (only very few do so) but then this fakes are generally really cheap authentic coins used to make much more expenisve coins look more convincing when offered together with authentic coins. This is not the case here, these are not very cheap and they were often the most exensive and best selling fakes of fake sellers.
And the other fakes were offered by resellers or auction houses, who were selling the coins for consignors, who buy many coins at origin countries cheap for example at local markets for reaselling them with profit and there are always fakes mixed in.

There are so many die links between them, that they all must be used at the same time at a mint, but there seems to be no other die links to earlier or later issues.
And no die links or die matches to authentic coins.
So they produced many dies at the same time in NEO Thrakia (modern Buklgaria) and then they were minting at the same time with all this dies modern fakes and then they stopped minting although all dies were still intact (dies do not show die wear, die flaws, die breaks) implying that they these fakes must have been minted from fesh dies.
There is for each legion exactly one die (LEG II possibly 2 different dies) which is very  suspicious (they wanted to conver all legions to sell as many of these as possible, you do not need 2 from same legion but many want different legions and so you can sell them fakes form many diferrent legions) and the relation between obverse and reverse dies is not reasonable, too.
At real mints worked generally more than one artist who cut dies but here the style is so similar that it was most likely one artist who cut all these legionary dies.

This forgery are thinking how they can make if possible fast as much profit as possible and this is not how empoyees thought in ancient mints who produced authentic coins (they wanted to produce as many authentic as fast as possible that meet quality requirements and it seems like often minting fast was more important than producing well struck coins).

I think it is easier to tell what is right with this coins, they are at least made of silver even though it is modern silver and they wrote the legend right and the depiction, even though the depiction is bad, is  still good enough to tell what they tried to imitate and they are struck like authentic coins. And some of them have Silverchloid on them, this can be found on authentic coins, but this can be produced artificially and can be found on other Bulgarian and Sicilian fakes, too. Everything else is wong.

[Ken W2]

I’m glad I asked, but gee, this discussion gives me pause about moving into denarii and Ants. I’ve only bought from sellers with 100 percent or close feedback, and not on the nfsl. Even then I look to see how many other  bidders there are and how experienced those bidders are. Also generally I buy coins that are attributable, but appear to have honest circulation wear. I also try to compare to members’ galleries or Wildwinds examples. Finally for now I’m staying in the $50 range and always less than $100, except my Orbiana. Obviously to get a decent Legionary coin and some less common denarii the price will go up and so has my radar. Thanks again for the help.
Ken

[Justin W]

Hey Ken, I don’t know if this will be useful. But, I never buy from eBay I only buy from reputable sellers/auctions and sites hosting reputable dealers. One of these very reputable sellers is forum ancient coins. So unless you are a very experienced collector, I would stick to reputable dealers and not eBay.


P.S. I do buy uncleaned coins/very cheap types of coins from eBay but those are usually not worth faking and if they are fakes it’s easy to tell. Also, just because someone has 100 % feedback and is not on the nfsl doesn’t mean they don’t sell fakes.

[Ken W2]

Hey Justin. Thanks for the response. I love this hobby, started with uncleaneds and that is still my focus. I love this Forvm. It’s a wealth of info and I enjoy the community. I think what it comes down to is that the wide range of supply available on ebay just cannot be beat. So, you exercise caution while taking advantage if that supply. Yes, that means unscrupulous dealers will take advantage as well.  But I don’t think that means we condemn that whole market place for silver though. I think some Forvm members are eBay sellers. I’ve bought almost all my 50 or so silvers from two sellers, both of whom have near perfect feedback and both of whom regularly seller a variety of coins and other artifacts to many, many buyers with several hundred to a few thousand deals under their belt. I suppose we could all be suckers though. Both of these sellers allow returns. I’ve only posted one of my silver buys here— for ID help— a Vespasian which some of the more experienced members quickly  IDed without expressing any concern about the coin. If I was better set up for photography I’d start a gallery and ask for feedback. I need to work on that. Thanks again.
Ken

[Justin W]

Ken, I absolutely agree eBay should not be completely ruled out as a marketplace. I have seen tons of variants of coins found from people buying from eBay. I guess it’s all about being aware and doing research about the coin you’re buying. That can be said for every coin purchase but especially when it comes to eBay. But there are many resources to help spotting out fakes like forums nfsl and fake coin database. Also one can compare a purchase with coins that have sold in different auctions which can be seen on acsearch or coin archives. So considering all of that I personally avoid making purchases on eBay but if one is diligent enough about researching coins before a purchase then that minimizes the risk. Btw I also started with uncleaned coins and I still love them even know I mostly purchase single cleaned coins now.

[djmacdo]

Perhaps eBay ought not be completely ruled out, but it is a mine field.  There are literally more fakes than real there, and if you eliminate the real coins that are in miserable condition or ridiculously overpriced along with the fakes, the residue is very small indeed. 

[Ken W2]

I love this forvm too. I have a protocol question. Is the “right” way to get feedback about my silvers, and thus feedback about my buying due diligence, to create a gallery and then ask the forvm members for input? I know it may be inconclusive bc based solely on photos, but that feedback would be helpful.
Ken

[Carausius]

Is the “right” way to get feedback about my silvers, and thus feedback about my buying due diligence, to create a gallery and then ask the forvm members for input?

Well, we do not screen purchases here.  In fact, that is a Forum rule.  So, best way is to post a coin (one coin per thread) AFTER purchase, and then only if you have specific concerns about the coin. For instance, "I bought this coin recently and I'm concerned it may be fake because...."  Share well-focused photos and give coin's size and weight when you do so.