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Author Topic: Ephesos or Arados?  (Read 2483 times)

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Offline Virgil H

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Ephesos or Arados?
« on: January 10, 2021, 09:51:49 pm »
I am putting this one here instead of Identification Help. Hope that is OK. I have started trying to teach myself how to attribute coins. Very recently, I decided to start checking my attributed coins to learn from that, as well as to see if they are accurate. The first one I did was not accurate, that was an eye opener. It was close, but wrong. This is the second one. I suck at taking photos, but have looked at this one under a 10X microscope. What I am trying to do here is verify if my thoughts on the city are correct or not.

Coin was attributed by dealer as Ionia-Ephesos, SNG Cop 297, Kinns Attic page 89. I am working on getting access to the Kinns article. However, I am having trouble with the letters on the Obverse on either side of the bee. The Reverse is also hard to read. The magistrate name is impossible to read. I think it is there, but at edge and very worn or missing.

Looking at the letter to the left of the bee, the closest thing I can compare it to is a couple of Arados coins I have found. I cannot reconcile it with any of the Ephesus coins. Am I on the right track here?
Thanks

Added, sorry, forgot the first time: 3.992 grams, 18mm

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2021, 01:09:49 am »
Dear Virgil H & Board,

The partially visible letter to the right of the bee/wasp looks more like a theta to me than a phi. 

What is strange is the middle set of legs on the insect.  I don't know if I can actually see them...  Also, the palm tree is badly disjointed and the beaded border is quite messy looking.  Makes me wonder if your coin is a contemporary imitation of an Arados issue, which apparently do exist, as demonstrated by this piece:

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5597188

You may want to also make certain your coin is not a fourrée, which can have convincing weights.  An example:

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1657887

Hope some of this helps.

     
Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan     

Offline Arados

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2021, 04:20:45 am »
Hi Virgil H,

I agree with Mark that your coin could be a contemporary imitation, the formation of the palm tree looks odd and does not conform to official coins of Ephesos or Arados. I see the letter daleph to the right of the bee but difficult to confirm or dismiss with the fuzzy images. Clearer images could help in determining where the coin was struck.

Martin

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2021, 10:48:49 am »
Thank you Mark and Martin,
I am going to see if I can get better pictures, might take me a little while. The letter to the left of the bee's neck was what I was primarily going by, there are a couple of Arados that seem to possibly fit, including one composite "letter" I am not sure the name of. The bees legs are there, but, again, hard to find coins with the same legs. Same with the palm tree as you mentioned. I was going to move on to those items after verifying the city.

Contemporary imitation means ancient fake, right? Also, a friend just sent me the Kinns article and I haven't looked at it yet. More work to do.

Virgil

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2021, 05:15:23 pm »
Here is the photo from when I bought the coin. It is better than my photo. As I said in another thread, I have learned to look up the coin before I buy it, not after.
Thanks,
Virgil

Offline Virgil H

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Contemporary Imitation Arados/Ephesus Help Please
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2021, 08:51:39 pm »
Need some help placing a final identification on this coin and help in figuring out what to put on a flip for a coin like this.

I bought this one from a reputable dealer, not going to say who or where from. It was attributed as Ionia - Ephesus SNG Cop 297 and Kinns page 89. I did not look up the coin before buying. My bad.

It was clear it was not SNG Cop 297. I got ahold of Kinns and it wasn't that, either. I have looked at hundreds of coins in this process. My conclusion was that it wasn't Ephesus, but maybe Arados. It seems to me that Ephesus is pretty consistent with the letters on either side of the bee's neck and do not come close with this coin. I posted it in the Greek coin forum to see if I maybe had the city right.

A couple of the experts think it is a contemporary imitation, something that hadn't even crossed my mind. I continued to look and haven't found anything close, not even in contemporary imitation sales, although there aren't that many examples I could find. I did find a few. I am going with the expert's opinions now, that it is a contemporary imitation.

Looking at the coin, the magistrate is not readable. I think it is there in part from a microscope, but I could also be imaging things that aren't there. The palm tree behind the stag is really problematic. And so are the bee's legs and the letters.

If this is a contemporary imitation, how do you record that in your records? Can you date it within a range, I assume at a similar time when the official coins were struck? Can you even identify a city?

Any help and ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Edited to add: 18mm, 3.992 grams

Thank you,
Virgil

Offline Arados

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2021, 02:18:24 am »
The new image was still indecisive. Is there any chance of you posting a clearer image of the city name, its located on the reverse in right field ?

Martin

Offline Altamura

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2021, 05:07:39 am »
In my eyes it is clearly a contemporary imitation. If you only look at the broken and non-straight baseline the stag is standing on and the bad style of the stag itself  :-\. You don't find this on official coins.

... Need some help placing a final identification on this coin and help in figuring out what to put on a flip for a coin like this. ...
For some ancient coins you never will get a "final identification" because there is not enough information available. When collecting ancient coins you have to be able to accept a certain amount of uncertainty  :).

Ancient imitations is a field where there is not much research available. Usually the imitations are a bit later than the originals, but it is not always clear how much and who exactly did produce these coins  :(.

Regards

Altamura



Offline Virgil H

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2021, 11:54:14 am »
The new image was still indecisive. Is there any chance of you posting a clearer image of the city name, its located on the reverse in right field ?

Martin

Martin,
I have looked at the letters on the right of the stag and they are on the very edge and very worn to the point I am not sure they are there at all, but in my imagination. Also, I thought with these coins, the letters to right of stag was the Magistrate and that the mint mark/city was on either side of the bee. That is why I thought it can't be Ephesus, because most of those I have looked had   :Greek_epsilon: :Greek_Phi: I don't think I can get a better picture, but I will try scanning it and see what I get.

Altamura,
I am coming around to your points with this one. The dealer may have more info, he said he would respond in a day or two after I emailed him. This coin has been a real learning experience.

Thank you both.
Virgil

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2021, 12:42:41 pm »
Here is my scan. I did my best to adjust levels and contrast, etc, but this is about as good as I can get it. I know it isn't great.
Thanks,
Virgil

Offline Arados

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2021, 08:20:54 am »
Nope, can't make any sense of the city name and to me it appears that :Greek_Phi: is in left field. I would settle for ancient imitation of Ephesus, my gut feeling says that its not Arados. ???

Online Pekka K

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2021, 08:37:37 am »

I agree with Martin, and on right field I see  :reversedepsilon:

So retrograde ethnic of Ephesos:Greek_epsilon:  :Greek_Phi: )

Pekka K

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2021, 10:02:15 am »
Thank you very much Martin and Pekka. I wonder why they would put the  :Greek_Phi: and  :Greek_epsilon: on the opposite sides? That really threw me off, made me think the  :Greek_Phi: was a worn composite letter as is common with Arados. I will certainly go with your recommendations here.
Again, many thanks,
Virgil

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2021, 10:29:04 am »

Not an unusual error on imtations.

Die looked like this, and you see the reason:

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2021, 02:02:28 pm »

Not an unusual error on imtations.

Die looked like this, and you see the reason:

Wow, very interesting. Makes sense now. Thanks again.
Virgil

Offline Anaximander

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2021, 06:28:56 am »
I have also had a surprise with this coin type.  Back in 1999, my coin dealer in Miami sold me a drachm of Ephesus. Except it wasn't.  It was from Arados.  Alliance coinage can surprise you.  It don't believe it to be a contemporary imitation, just a misidentification.  Have a look.  The tell: the legend on the reverse.  It was an early lesson in ancient Greek numismatics: read the legends.

Phoenicia, Arados. 172/1 BC. AR Drachm (4.15 gm), Aradian local year 88. Bee, F𐌂-MC monogram in fields. / Stag stdg r. before date palm, APAΔIΩN to r.  gVFSNG Berry II #1423; BMC Phoenicia p.20 #147; Duyrat p.74 #2579; HGC 10 #63; SNG Cop 7 (Phoenicia) #30. cf. Sear Greek II #5989 var. (RY, monogram).

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2021, 10:22:29 am »
Anaximander,
Thank you for your comments. I really wish I could make out the legend, but I can barely see parts of it and I think parts of it aren't even there, worn or not as it is on the far right side. I have looked under a microscope and that didn't help. I will probably revisit this at some point with a fresh eye.
Virgil

Offline hayastani

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2021, 11:34:56 am »
The epsilon looks more a lunate epsilon (:Greek_epsilon:) than the "archaic" form (E). The original Ephesos coins date to the second century BC, but lunate epsilon is from AD. In local coins from the RPC, "E" is still in use during the reign of Claudius:

https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/1/2622

I noticed ":Greek_epsilon:" began to appear during the reign of Domitianus:

https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/2/1065

Or just bad lettering, because :Greek_Phi: does not look terribly well executed either?

Offline Altamura

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2021, 12:35:01 pm »
... The epsilon looks more a lunate epsilon (:Greek_epsilon:) than the "archaic" form (E). The original Ephesos coins date to the second century BC, but lunate epsilon is from AD. In local coins from the RPC, "E" is still in use during the reign of Claudius ...
In "Opuscula Anatolica IV", NC Vol. 174 (2014), pp. 1-28, there is a chapter by Philip Kinns called "Lunate letter forms in the 4th century and Hellenistic coinage of Ionia".
He shows that the use of the lunate forms of sigma, omega and epsilon on coins began already in the forth century BC (for some of these letters earlier, for some later) and have been used in parallel to the usual forms.

Here is an example with lunar epsilon from Herakleia in Ionia from the second or first century BC: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b85188388
another one from the second century BC from Smyrna: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=6007560

Regards

Altamura


Offline Virgil H

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2021, 02:28:33 pm »
Thank you both for those comments. This is fascinating.
Virgil

Offline hayastani

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2021, 02:57:22 pm »
[In "Opuscula Anatolica IV", NC Vol. 174 (2014), pp. 1-28, there is a chapter by Philip Kinns called "Lunate letter forms in the 4th century and Hellenistic coinage of Ionia".
He shows that the use of the lunate forms of sigma, omega and epsilon on coins began already in the forth century BC (for some of these letters earlier, for some later) and have been used in parallel to the usual forms.

That is considerably earlier than I was aware of, for coins. Thank you for the Opuscula Anatolica IV article, it is quite an interesting read.

Offline Arados

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2021, 07:54:46 am »
Hi Anaximander,

I have also had a surprise with this coin type.  Back in 1999, my coin dealer in Miami sold me a drachm of Ephesus. Except it wasn't.  It was from Arados.

I hope you were delighted to find out it was from Arados. Although the dealer was mistaken, on your coin the city name and letters (monogram/era date) are unmistakably and easily recognisable as that of the Arados mint.

Alliance coinage can surprise you.  It don't believe it to be a contemporary imitation, just a misidentification.

I am not quite sure what you are referring in regards to alliance coinage (do you mean; shared iconographic elements) ?

You are of course entitled to your own opinion but the blundered palm tree, unusual combination of letters (monogram/era date) suggest contemporary imitation. I very much doubt whether the workshops of both Ephesos or Arados would have allowed such inferior dies, surely there would have been strict quality checks.

Martin

Offline Altamura

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2021, 04:17:45 am »
... In "Opuscula Anatolica IV", NC Vol. 174 (2014), pp. 1-28, there is a chapter by Philip Kinns called "Lunate letter forms in the 4th century and Hellenistic coinage of Ionia". ...
As I have seen now this article is available online: https://www.academia.edu/10896948/Opuscula_Anatolica_IV_iii_A_New_Cistophoric_Fraction_of_Tralles

Regards

Altamura


Offline OldMoney

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2021, 12:47:26 pm »
This coin was sold in an Auction in Vienna as a part of a group lot, about two
years ago. The coin appears to be an imitation, but neither the original image,
nor this one above, really sheds any light on what magistrate it was meant to
imitate (if any, it may even be blundered).

NB: Even though they share the same general types, this is NOT an alliance
issue as claimed above. See Kinns' article in the 1999 Numismatic Chronicle
about how the Arados issues related to the coins of Ephesos.

- Walter

P.S. Thank you for the weight and diameter details.
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Offline Virgil H

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2021, 09:20:18 pm »
This coin was sold in an Auction in Vienna as a part of a group lot, about two
years ago. The coin appears to be an imitation, but neither the original image,
nor this one above, really sheds any light on what magistrate it was meant to
imitate (if any, it may even be blundered).
 

Thank you for this information. Do you know if it was mentioned as an imitation in the auction or sold as a lot of genuine coins (I am still getting my head around the fact that a contemporary imitation is seen as genuine, or, at least not as bad as a modern fake, although the fact it actually is ancient is intriguing)? It is very difficult to tell if there are letters at all on this one for the Magistrate. If they are there, they are very far right and partially struck if at all. I have looked at it with a microscope and there may be a couple of letters or it could be my imagination.
Virgil

Offline Altamura

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2021, 03:14:22 am »

Offline Anaximander

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2021, 06:21:01 am »

Offline Altamura

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2021, 08:36:37 am »

Offline Anaximander

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Re: Ephesos or Arados?
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2021, 12:36:07 pm »

 

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