Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. All Items Purchased From Forum Ancient Coins Are Guaranteed Authentic For Eternity!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Internet challenged? We Are Happy To Take Your Order Over The Phone 252-646-1958 Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Possible group of fake Marc Anthony legionary denarii  (Read 2201 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dwarf

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 173
Possible group of fake Marc Anthony legionary denarii
« on: July 22, 2020, 05:43:34 am »
These denarii are offered in Germany - primarily from one dealer - in quantities
They fetch between 200 and 500 Euro each.
Problem for the community - they now have a pedigree.
To my opinion (and I am not alone) these are forgeries.

Attached a flikr link from a Polish forum, which shows denarii offered in Poland in the last two years.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/185762436@N04/sets/72157715180715643/

These coins are just examples - to show more possible fake coins would be no problem.

Any opinion appreciated - and any comments to add the dealer to the NFSL

Have a nice day and fun with your genuine coins
Klaus

Edit: I forgot to name a reason for my suspicions
Apart from obvious stylistic reasons (but how do you define style easily?)
it is just impossible die combinations. Coins from this group are all die-linked (clearly to be seen in th Polish link) and this cannot be (which reminds my on Monty Python)

Offline xanthos

  • Praetorian
  • **
  • Posts: 24
Re: Possible group of fake Marc Anthony legionary denarii
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2020, 05:12:33 am »
In addition to the impossible die combinations, the surfaces and edges look typical for pressed fakes. I agree with Klaus that those are all (good and dangerous) fakes and that the seller (are we allowed to name the individual?), who is and was selling those fakes in hundrets over the past months/years belongs on the NFSL.

Offline djmacdo

  • Tribunus Plebis 2017
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4321
  • I love this forum!
Re: Possible group of fake Marc Anthony legionary denarii
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2020, 07:30:48 am »
Klaus,

If I felt qualified to give an answer in this matter, I would do so.  I imagine many others are in a similar position.  There is no need to accuse us of corrupt intentions.

David MacDonald

Offline antoninus1

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 259
Re: Possible group of fake Marc Anthony legionary denarii
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2020, 03:22:01 am »
Aren´t there specialists for these coins here on the forum? I remember vivid discussions.

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 6767
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: Possible group of fake Marc Anthony legionary denarii
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2020, 11:14:48 am »
 Why do you say the die combinations are impossible?  We know these dies were recut to add numbers to the Legions.  There are 2 distinct engravers for this series as well.  I'm not saying they are authentic. I think they are pressed fakes but was hoping someone else would come forward first.  

Offline Din X

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1082
Re: Possible group of fake Marc Anthony legionary denarii
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2020, 05:23:43 pm »
With impossible die links I meant that these coins are die linked to each other and there are so many many die links between them but I did not find die links or die matches to proven authentic coins. There seem to be 9 obverse dies and 13 reverse dies Leg II, Leg III, Leg V, Leg VI, Leg VII, Leg IX,  Leg XI, Leg XII, Leg XIV, Leg XV, Leg XVII, Leg XIX. Leg XX. I would have expected different reverse dies from the same legions, too.
Die links mean that this dies existed and were used at the same time at the same mint.
The planchets are strangely round and the edge cracks look strange, too.
The details are very soft and soapy and there seem to be repeated idnetical individual characteristics from striking like bad or flat struck areas on coins from the same dies, which is very suspicious.
And that these were sold by Bulgarian and other fake sellers in the past is not a good sign ofr authetnticity.
I have not seen any of these in real mint state meaning with metal flow and mint luster.

Does anyone know if these are actually fakes from modern hand cut dies and so is it only a coincident that I could not find die matches or links on acsearch or museum collections (I looked fast and could have missed some)?
Where authentic legionary denari for all legions minted at the same mint (travel mint?) at the same time?


I have one of these fakes and an authentic one and the the fake looks very different and worng in hand and of course on pictures, too.


Picture 1, same die but identical characteristics from striking bad sruck G of AVG and rows etc. and non of these shows the dots of which the mast coinsits of anymore

Picture 2 one of these fakes showing slippage, just to show that these are possibly struck and that they can have new individual characteristics from striking

Picture 3 my fake

Picture 4 edge of my fake

Picture 5 edge of my fake

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 6767
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: Possible group of fake Marc Anthony legionary denarii
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2020, 11:17:15 pm »
Yes the real ones were all struck at the same place and same time just before the battle of Actium.  
While excellent examples are known, most of these come very worn since they circulated for over 200 years, so I'm always suspicious of high grade coins from this series.  These would appear to be struck and even double struck as in the example you posted above.  That one looks convincing.  Number 3 is an obvious fake.  

Din are you also Dwarf?

Offline Din X

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1082
Re: Possible group of fake Marc Anthony legionary denarii
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2020, 01:53:30 am »
"Din are you also Dwarf?"

He is "Zwerg" and he said that he will nominate him here so I know.


https://www.numismatikforum.de/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11495&start=7125



I am "Amentia", and I posted to the german board several fakes offered by this ebay seller to this board and this could have let to wrong assumption that he is selling many fakes, which is wrong his number of fakes in relation to real coins is low

https://www.numismatikforum.de/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=53721&start=495


The same seller is offering some fake litrae of which I have the dies, and my dies have die flaws like breaks which connects them without a doubt to the coins.
I was to lazy to notify him but I am sure he would withdraw them, especially if I would write him so.
There are so many fakes around at auctions of auction houses and dealers it would be to time consuming to write them all. 

For a nomination I would have choosen fakes which can be proven easier to be fakes, maybe very obvious published fakes .


The problem is that the ebay seller L. is not knowingly and intentionally selling fakes, and the number of fakes is low in realation to authentic coins he offers so I am against his nomination.
He can be sometimes be very stubburn and not accepting that fakes are fakes except there exists very good evidence that the coins must be fake without a doubt or it comes from a fomous expert of this type of coins.
Some auction houses and other dealers are withdrawing coins or refusing to sell coins if there is the smallest doubt that they could be fake because they do not want to sell fakes.
Others will sell them and consider them to be authentic till proven otherwise that they must be without a doubt fake.





 


Offline DzikiZdeb

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1473
Re: Possible group of fake Marc Anthony legionary denarii
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2020, 06:09:54 am »
As one of co-authors of graphics attached to first post I'd like to add a few words.

Original tread at polish forum is: http://forum.tpzn.pl/index.php/topic,12721.0.html

All denarii shown in graphics were sold by one seller at polish auction site allegro.pl. Initially they used two different accounts (october 2018 - end of 2019), when both have been recoginized as fake sellers, the third account was created, which is in use until today. Apart from Antony's denarii they also sold many other fake coins in similar style - most of them were Republican and Principate denarii. One of characteristic features (apart from those already mentioned in this thread) was artificial, multicolour patina. Probably it was noticed, because some of recenty sold denarii hasn't got it.

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity