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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Byzantine Coins (Moderators: vercingetorix, wileyc, Paleologos)  |  Topic: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: 12th Century Trachea & Tetartera  (Read 3294 times)
glebe
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« on: May 30, 2020, 10:56:23 pm »

For those interested in the 12th century trachea and tetartera of Byzantium I attach some tables summarising the various issues of these types.

Ross G.

Hmm - the tables didn't display as I would have liked, so I have pulled them for the moment.


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glebe
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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2020, 12:41:01 am »

Well, here are the tables anyway. (Click on the images for better quality images you can adjust to size).

Included in the tables are estimates of the average weights of the various types as we now have them, derived from the market sales listed in acsearch (hopefully avoiding assignment errors and duplicates), and also the data in DOC IV.

The tables are intended to provide a convenient reference framework for discussions of the more esoteric topics in this area of study, particularly for those new to the area.

Ross G.

Edit: Tables last modified:

 25 July 2020 (Alexius III).
  8 Aug. 2020 (Manuel I).
 9 Nov. 2020 (Alexius I).
14 Nov. 2020 (Alexius I).
24 Nov. 2020 (Alexius I & Alexius III).


* Table I.JPG (235.59 KB, 980x1030 - viewed 25 times.)

* Table II.JPG (219.87 KB, 936x860 - viewed 25 times.)

* Table III.JPG (187.9 KB, 953x900 - viewed 26 times.)
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joma-tk
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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2020, 04:21:30 am »

Dear Ross

Thanks for the tables.
Can you also provide them in Excel form?

Regards

tk
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glebe
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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2020, 04:46:07 am »

The original data is in an Excel spreadsheet, but the tables are simply a summary in word format.

Since I can't create tables on Forum I had to snip the word doc and convert it to jpg
for display here (hence the dodgy quality).

People can of course make up their own tables in whatever form suits them.

Ross G.
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glebe
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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2020, 05:01:52 am »

Actually I do have the tables in docx, rich txt and pdf format, all of which display nicely (but none of which can used in Forum posts it seems).

Ross G.
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« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2020, 07:11:39 am »

Here is an example I did a while ago using tables:



Metal: AR
Denomination: Miliaresion
Mint: Constantinople
Obv: IҺSЧS XRISTЧS ҺICA; Cross potent set on three steps
Rev: +MIXA/HL S ΘЄOFV/LACtЄ ЄC Θ'/ bASILIS RO/mAIOҺ; Inscription of Michael and Theophylactus in five lines across field
References: Sear-1616; DOC-3
Provenance: Gemini LLC Auction III, Lot 530



Metal: AE
Denomination: Follis
Mint: Constantinople
Obv: Crowned and facing bust of Michael, wearing loros, holding globus cruciger and scepter
Rev: Large M between X/X/X and N/N/N; above, cross; beneath, A
References: Sear-1617; DOC-7, under Michael II
Provenance: Savoca Numismatik GmbH Auction 7, Lot 634



Code:
[hr]

[table]
[tr]
[td][img width=256 height=128]https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/36484/Sear-1616.jpg[/img][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td]
[td]
[table]

[tr]
[td][i][b]Metal:[/b][/i] AR[/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td][i][b]Denomination:[/b][/i] Miliaresion[/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td][i][b]Mint:[/b][/i] Constantinople[/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td][b][i]Obv:[/i][/b] [i]IҺSЧS XRISTЧS ҺICA[/i]; Cross potent set on three steps[/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td][b][i]Rev:[/i][/b] [i]+MIXA/HL S ΘЄOFV/LACtЄ ЄC Θ'/ bASILIS RO/mAIOҺ[/i]; Inscription of Michael and Theophylactus in five lines across field[/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td][b][i]References:[/i][/b] [url=https://www.amazon.com/Byzantine-Coins-Their-Values-David/dp/0713477407?ie=UTF8&ref_=asap_bc]Sear-1616[/url]; [url=https://www.amazon.com/Catalogue-Byzantine-Dumbarton-Collection-Whittemore/dp/0884020126/ref=sr_1_17?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1465919019&sr=1-17]DOC-3[/url][/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td][b][i]Provenance:[/i][/b] [url=https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=352168]Gemini LLC Auction III, Lot 530[/url][/td]
[/tr]

[/table]
[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

[hr]

[table]
[tr]
[td][img height=128 width=256]https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/36484/Sear-1617.jpg[/img][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td]
[td]
[table]

[tr]
[td][i][b]Metal:[/b][/i] AE[/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td][i][b]Denomination:[/b][/i] Follis[/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td][i][b]Mint:[/b][/i] Constantinople[/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td][b][i]Obv:[/i][/b] Crowned and facing bust of Michael, wearing loros, holding globus cruciger and scepter[/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td][b][i]Rev:[/i][/b] Large M between X/X/X and N/N/N; above, cross; beneath, A[/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td][b][i]References:[/i][/b] [url=https://www.amazon.com/Byzantine-Coins-Their-Values-David/dp/0713477407?ie=UTF8&ref_=asap_bc]Sear-1617[/url]; [url=https://www.amazon.com/Catalogue-Byzantine-Dumbarton-Collection-Whittemore/dp/0884020126/ref=sr_1_17?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1465919019&sr=1-17]DOC-7[/url], under Michael II[/td]
[/tr]

[tr]
[td][b][i]Provenance:[/i][/b] Savoca Numismatik GmbH Auction 7, Lot 634[/td]
[/tr]

[/table]
[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

[hr]
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Joe Sermarini
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« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2020, 08:09:39 am »

Nice, except please don't link to photos that are not on Forum that will turn into red Xs someday. Add them to your gallery and link to them there, please.
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Joseph Sermarini
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« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2020, 08:49:04 am »

Fixed....
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« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2020, 09:43:22 am »

Thanks!
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glebe
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« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2020, 09:14:35 pm »

Here is an example I did a while ago using tables:


OK, so I've generated the html [now deleted] for Table I (using an on-line generator) but how do I incorporate that into the post?

Ross G.
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« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2020, 10:28:26 am »

The problem you are running into is that majority of all forum-based software use BB Code as opposed to HTML to encode posts.  It is somewhat similar, but also different.  As such, you can not take HTML and expect it to be displayed properly on a forum, including FORVM.  It needs to be stripped down to the bare minimum and reformatted using  the correct mnemonics, unfortunately.  I can spend some time to reformat your post, but it will take some time. 

Ram
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glebe
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« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2020, 04:24:45 pm »


 I can spend some time to reformat your post, but it will take some time. 

Ram

That's a very generous offer, but it's really not worth the effort, as I wouldn't be able to update the post in future.

Ross G.
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glebe
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« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2020, 08:32:10 pm »

OK - I've worked out how to produce the BB code for the table (actually I used an on-line generator, but I see how you can use the table tags here, although it's pretty tedious and easy to mess up).

Trouble is there seems to no option for producing grid lines, and without them the tables are not easy to read.

Ross G.

E.g:

Table I.
 
RulerMintTrachyWt (gm)Tetartera"Half-Tets"
& Imitatives
Wt (gm)Notes
Alexius IConstant.S.1918-193.95 [4.2]
S.1920-234.0Scarce
Thessalon.S.19293.3 [3.8]Some clipping

(and so on.)




Maybe alternating the background colour of the rows would help, although I doubt that this is supported here.


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glebe
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« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2020, 12:34:36 am »

I have made a few changes to the tables above, adding some details of the later imitative types.

Ross G.
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« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2020, 02:12:15 am »

I have also updated the weights for the Manuel tets SBCV 1969 and 1970 of (supposedly) Constantinople.
Data on these types is slim so I'm not sure what to make of them - are they genuine lightweight tets (c.3.4 gm) or do we just have some underweight examples of standard types?

Ross G.
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« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2020, 03:33:55 pm »

It is interesting adding the acsearch data for SBCV-1970 lowered the average weight , in DOC it is 3.6. from 11 examples. It is not commonly seen as most of the Constantinople issued tetartera are a bit scarce. The exception to that seems to be SBCV-1968,( I have always seen it available on the market.)

Also the coin did contain silver making it a Constantinople issue. You can see the result of Hendy on page 49 DOCIV (DOC Type D SBCV-1970 2.33% and 4.18%) however Metcalf was the one who originally proved the issues from Constantinople contained silver.

I think the next step would be to attempt to get the average weight for different group of hoard finds, that would answer the question if the coins were minted with different weights for different areas of circulation.) It is a theory I don't agree with but it would be interesting to prove or disprove. I do not have enough info on the hoards listed , they normally do not provide weights, only the number of a certain type.
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https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.
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« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2020, 08:32:42 pm »


It is interesting adding the acsearch data for SBCV-1970 lowered the average weight , in DOC it is 3.6. from 11 examples. It is not commonly seen as most of the Constantinople issued tetartera are a bit scarce. The exception to that seems to be SBCV-1968,( I have always seen it available on the market.)


The 11 examples are actually of DOC 16 = S.1969.

But anyway both S.1969 and 1970 still seem underweight for tets.

Ross G.

P.S:  A recent sale by Nomos has bumped the market average weight of S.1970 up to 3.5 gm.
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« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2020, 02:42:43 pm »

I have 3 x 1970. Weight is 3.38; 4.00; 4.50 gr.

Also 3 x 1968, much lighter: 3.40; 3.50; 4.30 gr.

All 6 were purchased on ebay, so they would not appear on acsearch.

Could be interesting to add a min and a max weight. Weight is all over the board for these coins.
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glebe
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« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2020, 06:55:44 pm »

Thanks for those weights - it certainly helps. I also have an example of S.1970 at 3.37 gm.

Adding them all in brings the mean market weight for S.1970 to 3.6 gm, and leaves the more common S.1968 at 3.9 gm.

Ross G.
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glebe
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« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2020, 10:38:19 pm »

One interesting question that Hendy doesn’t seem to address is the weight standard for the trachy and tetarteron. On the face of it, this seems to be about 3.9 gm, which suggests that the standard is 1/7 of an ounce = 1/84 of a pound (as for the late Republican/Augustan denarius). Assuming a pound of 327 gm, this implies a trachy/tet standard of 3.89 gm.

But is 327 gm the appropriate standard for the 12th century Byzantine pound? As it happens we have good evidence that it is, in the shape of the avoirdupois pound.

The Roman 12 oz pound is made up of 12 ounces of 6 sextulae/nomisma, i.e, 72 nomisma of 4.54 gm. A pound of 16 ounces would therefore contain 96 nomisma and weigh c.436 gm (the Euboic mina). Now, as several writers have suggested, the medieval avoirdupois pound of 453.6 gm looks suspiciously like it could be 100 nomisma, in which case the 12 oz pound would be 72/100 x 453.6 = 326.6 gm, confirming the pound of 327 gm.

Ross G.
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« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2020, 05:03:35 pm »

Readers may have noticed that two examples of the rare tetarteron CLBC 8.4.2, DOC 6 of Alexius III are currently on offer from a well-known auction house.

It seems that this type (and also the similar type SBCV 2014, DOC 4) was often cut down to around half size, possibly to match the small module Latin types of the early 13th century. I have accordingly updated the relevant Table III above.

Ross G.
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« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2020, 08:34:53 pm »

Did you include my examples too Ross? I have 3 examples. How many example's are you showing of each coin?

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https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.
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« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2020, 01:19:50 am »

I see only two examples of SBCV 2014 in your Forum gallery, each of 2.7 gm, possibly clipped.

At the moment I include only 4 unclipped examples in S.2014.

Ross G.
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« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2020, 01:07:14 am »

2014 appeared 4 times for sale during the past 3 months. You wouldn't say it is that rare, except I did not see it outside this interval.

eBay item number: 373092159892
Diameter: 20mm
Material: Bronze
Weight: 3.15gm
Sold for 38 USD...

eBay item number: 153926726032
ALEXIUS I. 1081-1118. Æ Half Tetarteron 18mm 2g.

Nomos - Obolos Webauction 15 - lot 988
Alexius III Angelus-Comnenus, 1195-1203. Tetarteron (Bronze, 21 mm, 3.86 g, 7 h), Constantinople, 1195-1197.

Leu Numismatik - Web Auction 12 - lot 2080 - this one was part of a larger lot


Somehow I managed to miss them all. Sad
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glebe
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« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2020, 02:10:38 am »


2014 appeared 4 times for sale during the past 3 months. You wouldn't say it is that rare, except I did not see it outside this interval.


Indeed, and in fact I now rate this type as scarce rather than rare.

Ross G.
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