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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coins and Notorious Fake Sellers (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Myrina fakes 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Din X
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« on: February 20, 2020, 06:08:20 am »

Coin picture 1 is authentic

All other coins are fakes and  4 were  sold by reputable auction houses (1 was sold twice) and 2 on ebay.

I am curious if you can see what details were recutted and what could be wrong with this fakes.
They can be easily recognized like almost all fakes from good pictures.

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Din X
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« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2020, 06:10:13 am »

more
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« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2020, 07:22:05 am »

The coins 2 and 3 in the first post appear to be the same coin.  Not sure what is recut but the most of the fakes (except coins 2 and 3 in the first post) appear to be pressed and the flans are not hammered as they should be.
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« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2020, 01:07:02 pm »

The beads and curl is recut.
The top die flaw in the hair seems to be in the ancient die too.
Taht this die falw is visible on autentic and fake coins means that they must must be from same dies because same die flaw, but that some details must ahve been recu into transfer dies.
This recut curl looks very strange and modern
Have one too, picture of the coin box there bottom left fake.


The coin on last picture here is authentic and has same die flaw in the hair as the fakes.
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« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2020, 03:17:10 pm »

As usual I am totally confused by these "recut transfer dies".
Just why do we think the fakes are fakes? Is it because there are too many examples with identical wear perhaps? (although some show different different wear).
Also it would be easier to discuss the problem if the various images were clearly identified e.g, Genuine 1, Fake 1, Fake 2 etc.

Ross G.
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Din X
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« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2020, 12:12:37 am »

How high is the chance that in ancient times an artist cut 2 completely identical dies (everything identical except curl and beads) and that on both dies an identical die crack appears in the hair.
The chance that so identical die existed is 0 and the chance that on both dies an identical die flaw appeared is even less than 0%.

Even if you would have many completely identical dies the chance that they will have identical die flaws here die cracks is 0 % if the coins are hammered by hand.
The metal of the die is not always completely identical and there can be impurities that are weaking structur, so the alloy of all of this dies would have to be 100% on all places of the die.
The planchets itself are not 100% identical if it comes to shape and alloy and the power and the position where the hammerer hits the die is not identical, too. And the temperatures can influence too, the heated planchet will be hit by room temperature by the dies and the dies will become hot from usage with time and then cooling down to room temperature. So the die will increase its size if it becomes hot and shrink when cooling down and if temperature differences are high and the die is cooling down very fast it can cause tension in metal and weaken the metal.


So it is clear that all coins with this die flaw are from the same dies we will have to ask why some Details like curl and beads are different.
And the only explanation is recutting.
And now was the recutting done in ancient times (there is no plausible reason why they should have done this). Or in modern times this curl and bead was of center on the mother and so missing and so this missing details were recut to transfer dies.

We could of course argue, that the planchet is too flat and that the planchet has like other Beirut fakes from same Workshop a problem that condems them.
Or that you can buy this fakes too from Libanese fake sellers, bought my fake from a Libanese fake seller, bought already many fakes from him. Or that the detail are too soft and transfer errors appeared (pearl in hait) and wrongly recut details which are typical for transfer die fakes.
Or we could speak about the fake artificial toning (paint) on many of this fakes.
Or why there is no metal flow visible on this fakes implying that they were pressed.


What speaks fro the authenticity of this fakes, I can not find anything but many serious problems that speak against authenticity.


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« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2020, 01:07:25 am »

I'm not yet convinced about the re-cutting, and I see no specific evidence that we have a transfer die (although better judges might well find some).
So it comes down to whether you think these things are pressed or struck.

Ross G.
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Din X
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« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2020, 03:10:57 am »

I'm not yet convinced about the re-cutting, and I see no specific evidence that we have a transfer die (although better judges might well find some).
So it comes down to whether you think these things are pressed or struck.

Ross G.

I have mentioned many more arguments than only fabric and recut.

Why is there PAINT on some of this fakes?
I do not think that anyone would really do PAINT on an authentic coin, why should anyone do this and damaging the coin (not sure if paint can be removed without harming the coin)?
Many fake coins are altered to make them look old but their attempts are in most cases so bad and not convincing (artificial wear, toning with chemicals or paint, adding test cuts, polishing, adding scratches, repatinating etc) that they are showing, that there must be somthing wrong with the coin instead of making the coin look convincing.
But forgers do such alterings because they think it will let the coins look authentic and old and it seems to work often enough that this very bad fakes even fool auction houses although they are meant to deceive unexperienced tourists.

Offered by fakes sellers, yes this alone does not condemn a coin but it makes the coin very suspicious.

And as far as I know non of this Myrina fakes with recut curl was found through excavations from untouched earth. (Not condemning but speaks rather agains authenticity and for its authenticity)
I bought mine from fake seller and I have an authentic coin from this emission too.
And I can lay them side by side and there are huge differences and you want to tell me I am too stupid to tell the difference between fake and authentic coin from same emission in hand.
The planchet is wrong, too flat but the Beirut forgers have more fitting planchets which are not completely flat too, see for example the planchet of my Kyme tetradrachm (have posted in this thread a picture of a plastic box with my Beirut and old forgeries).  
The surface is very flat and no metal flow visible implying pressing rather than striking.
The edges are wrong, partly smoothed, equally thick diameter of the flan everywhere and no edge cracks (I have 10 fakes from this workshop with this sepcific edge).
So the equal planchet and edge proves that the planchets are produced the same way and the fakes produced the same way (pressed) resulting in same edge and flat surface and this means that they must so come from same workshop, the fakes are from different mints (Seleucid and Thasos etc.) and times and the planchets of authentic coins fromt this mints look different often the planchet of authentic coins has a different diameter at different places and edge cracks and is not so equally flat and the planchets of authentic coins are heated for minting so the edge looks different than on an cold pressed fake that has an equal diameter everywhere.

Forgers or workshops are producing generally the planchets for all oft their fakes the all same way!
And this is often different as they did in ancient times for this specific emission !
And they Beirut workshop seem to have for example only 2 different planchets for all of their fakes they produced no matter if they are producing fakes of for Seleucid mints or for Thasos etc.
And they did not consider or care about planchet differences (due to differenct production or flan preparations) of differnt mints, emissions, rulers at different times.

To planchets, for example some forgers are casting a round pellet and this pellet will be then hammered cold to a planchet, if this is done cold the metal is not so elastic as warm metal and so there will be often edge cracks and if then this  planchet will be struck or pressed later cold you will have too huge edge crack often found on Bulgarian fakes.

And often I have fakes and authentic coins from one emission, this gives me the opportunity to compare them in hand with authentic and fake coins from same emission and with other fake and authentic coins and with my fake database (pictures). Others generally do not have this fortune had have to argue only baed on pictures and so they do for exmple of ten not know how the edge looks like. And the ege alone can condemn coins as fakes, cast and electrotype and for modern dies fakes if the forgers did not produce the planchet the way they did it for this emission in ancient times.

We have detail loss , which can not be explained by die wear or soft striking and trqansfer errors like the prearl in the hair and recutting of details missing on the mother (again if we have enough coins from the same die we can reconstruct the details that were in ancient dies). This are problems that can  be found on transfer die fakes and not on authentic coins.


And again there are many authentic coins from this obverse die known before and after die break in hair, so it is possible to reconstruct how the details like the curl looked like in the original dies.
The curls looks identiacal on all authentic coins from this die before and after the die break, very sightly differences due to striking can be possible.
The curl look is significant different on the fakes but always identical on the fakes.
This excludes the possibility that the different appearance of the curle is due to striking or uneven wear etc. and such a difference in shape of the curl could have been hardly explained by striking, striking is not changing details so significant except slippage or double strinking and this must have been then identical on all fakes.
But posting more pictures could cause more confusion so i will not do but anyone can do him- oder herself.


Ross G., what arguments do you use for comdemning coins?
And can there be not good objections be made against each of the arguments you used to condemn coins?






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djmacdo
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« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2020, 05:20:28 am »

Din X,

You have certainly convinced me.

Mac
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Din X
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« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2020, 05:41:44 am »

Din X,

You have certainly convinced me.

Mac

Thank you, it can be really great to hear that it can be possible to follow my arguments.

Some more

I added pictures fake vs authentic.
I know that my specimen is not nice but I plan to upgrad my specimen but well struck, centered and preserved specimens are very very rare and so very expensive.
Added picture of the edge of the fake and like this the edges of all other fakes of this Beirut workshop look like (my Thasos fake and Seleucid fakes from same workshop have identical edge).

The fakes have not the problems with flat struck areas on reverse as most authentic coins (mine has this problem too), because the fakes are pressed and not struck and so they do not have flat struck areas.
And due to the completely flat planchet and perfect centering of the  fakes the curls and beads are prefectly visible on all fakes.
The problems with the planchet they used for this emission in ancient times is that the diameter of the flan is smaller in areas near the edge and this is often resulting in bad struck beads and curls like you can see on my specimen and most authentic specimens.
The planchet of the fake is compeltely flat, and on authentic coins from this emission the obverse is  convex and the reverse concave.
The fakes are prefectly centered and although the planchet of the fakes is smaller, which would increase the chance of bad centering.



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Din X
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« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2020, 06:05:55 am »

More fakes sold by auction houses
Coins shown in picture 1-4 in this post are FAKE

Recut details, wrong planchet, pressed etc. see more arguments in previous posts

They seem to use the standard planchet and the planchet they already used for their Kyme fakes (I think that they only have this 2 different planchets for all their fakes.)
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« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2020, 07:19:19 am »

I have no doubt that these are fake. The wrong flan fabric, pressed "strikes," and fake toning are quite bad on some.

I do want to point out to some of our new collector members that not ever coin struck with a recut die is fake. In ancient times, worn and damaged dies were often recut and repaired. A recut die is a good reason to very carefully examine other aspects of the coin to determine if it was recut in antiquity or by a modern forger. 
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Joseph Sermarini
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« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2020, 09:39:53 am »

Authentic coins from this dies can be found in all different die states at acsearch, so we can reconstruct the details in the dies and if recutting was made in authetnic dies or not.

We have here authentic coins from same dies minted with fresh dies without die flaw (actually a die break) (die state 1), coins with very small die break (die state 2) and then coins with stronger die break (die state 3) and then latest die state with even stronger die break (die state 4). And all have the same identical curl .

The recut transfer die fakes are from the "die state 3", and all coins from this transfer dies are from the same "die state 3", coins with this recut curl do not exist in previous or later die states.

So normal curl all die states exist.

Recut curl exist only in die state 3


Let´s make it easier to understand, in die state 3 an X was cut into the dies, then all coins minted after this recut in this and later die states must have an X.
And then no coins from a later die state without the x can exist, except there has been recutting again and the x was removed.


So in this cases: we do not have coins with this recut curl before die state 3, this means that the recut must be done in die state 3!
But the coins in later die state 4 have all already the normal curl again meaning that the curl must have been recut back already in die state 3 to normal.


So why should they recut a detail like the curl 2 times at the same die state after minting some coins and they must have managed to recut the curl 100 % back as it was before the first recut (very difficult)? Why ? I do not understand?





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« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2020, 11:20:27 am »

Perhaps you misunderstood my post? I was not writing to you Din X.  I was not saying these dies were recut in antiquity. I was trying to let our new collectors know that not every recut die is fake. I actually have new collectors contact me with concern that their coin is fake because they have found a die match. It is important to be clear that not every die match and not every coin struck with a recut die is fake.
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« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2020, 03:15:53 pm »

I am still not convinced about the re-cutting and see no obvious signs of a transfer die (where is there any loss of detail, for example?).
However the numerous problems concerning fabric and the planchets obviously raise serious doubts with these coins.

Ross G.
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Din X
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« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2020, 02:24:56 am »

There are transfer errors like the knot in hair, this knot is only visible on all transfer die fakes and must so be in the transfer dies.
A detail that can be found on all coins must have been in the dies !
This knot in hair can not be found on authentic coins no matter if they are from an earlier, the same or a later die state.
Because this knot can not be found on authentic coins it can not be in the authentic ancient dies.
Same for the hole in the nose, it can be found on all of this fakes (but sometimes coverd with dirt or paint), so it must have been in the dies.
But this hole can not be found on authentic coins so it was not in the ancient dies.
The bead wore out very early in the authentic  dies and are very soft on all specimens with die state 2 or more only on the fakes they are very sharp as they were only in the fresh dies state 1.
This means that the beads must have been recut. The curl is identical on all fakes but looks very different to how the curl looks on all authentic coins (small differences can be sometimes seen on authentic specimens due to die wear and striking)

Picture 1 shows the knot that can be found on all fakes but not on authentic coins

Picture 2 the kots of some of the fakes showing that this knot is visible on all of this fakes and must haven been in the transfer dies + recut curl

Picture 3 the hole in hose (picked only the 3 pictures where it is visible best), because it is on all it must have been in the transfer dies

Picture 4 authentic coins showing all 4 die states, you can see for example how the dies wore out and that the beads wore out very early and are very soft on all coin with die state 2 or more.

Picture 5 The 4 die states but I added the fake to replace the authentic die state 3 coin.


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« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2020, 08:14:17 pm »

Thanks for that Din X- it helps a lot.
I'm not entirely sure though that Fake State 3 preceeds Genuine State 4, and hence in theory the original die could have been recut.
However, the dot on the nose certainly does seem to indicate a transfer die. I wonder if there are any similar features on the reverse?

Ross G.
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« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2020, 01:59:32 am »

The hole in nose is an transfer error many Beirut forgeries have holes in hair, letters or other details, which can not be found on authentic coins.
I assume that some of the transfer dies are casted that would explain the holes (from gas bubbles) and knots and soft details. (This are typical casting problems)

There is a die break in the hair and the die break together with die wear and other die flaws indicates the die state!!!

In the real ancient authentic die was a die break in hair and the die break is growing with time from stress and pressure of striking, because the metal there is weakened.

In the transfer die is only an impression of a die break (always softer) and the metal there is not weakened, so this die break will not grow, but in the transfer dies new die flaws and breaks at different positions can appear that were not in real dies and are condemning them and of course transfer errors in the transfer dies, that can not be found in authetnic dies and wrong recutting.


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« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2020, 05:25:52 am »

If not yet done, fake coin reports please.
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