Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. All Items Purchased From Forum Ancient Coins Are Guaranteed Authentic For Eternity!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Internet challenged? We Are Happy To Take Your Order Over The Phone 252-646-1958 Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Confirming RIC VII Rome 396 and Milne (FH).  (Read 939 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline OldMoney

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1289
  • My Site! www.oldmoney.com.au
    • Walter Holt's Old Money
Confirming RIC VII Rome 396 and Milne (FH).
« on: September 12, 2019, 02:23:03 pm »
This is a coin I have had for quite a while, cataloguing it about twenty
years ago, but looked at again recently and thought I'd share it here.

It at first appears to be an otherwise common Roma/Wolf & Twins type
commemorative, struck post-330. However, upon reading RIC I noted
that it was apparently unpublished, except for the Fayum Hoard by
Milne in the 1914 JIAN. It states that "No wreathless coins are known
except for this FH specimen
". The note on p.345 of RIC goes onto to
suggest that Milne's description may have been "inaccurate"!

Recorded as RIC 396, but under the rarity rating it simply has a "?"!
Others on the same page, and same group, are mostly R5, so it seems
that they were all thought to be quite rare (although, as we now know,
the population search for these was not exhaustive at that time, being
mainly concentrated on museum and institutional holdings
).

No examples are listed on the online version of RIC, OCRE, although
they seem to have followed the example of LRBC (571) in assuming
these to exist in no less than five officina. Yet they only list the single
officina shown in RIC for the confirmed example of RIC 398, which has
the symbol of a wreath above. To add to the possible confusion, there
seems to be an identically described version as RIC 370/LRBC 556.

In any case, it seems like it is an interesting coin, worthy of additional
consideration and discussion.

- Walter
Coins of Ephesus
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/ephesuscoins
Walter Holt's Old Money - Ancient Coins
https://www.oldmoney.com.au
Sydney, Australia

Offline Callimachus

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 624
Re: Confirming RIC VII Rome 396 and Milne (FH).
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2019, 09:36:05 pm »
So why isn't it RIC 370?

What is the weight and diameter of your coin?

With these coins sometimes the size and weight of the coin can help in identifying the coin.

For example, the coins from Antioch in the links below, have the same mint marks, but the flan size and weight are very different. They are cataloged in RIC VII with two separate numbers.  Perhaps that is what is going on here.


https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-104055

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-104073



Offline Merinda

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
Re: Confirming RIC VII Rome 396 and Milne (FH).
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2019, 06:28:49 am »
I am confident RIC Rome 396 exists. I have 2 each of 370 and 396 in my collection, photographed below side by side to aid comparison in size:

Photo 1
RIC 370 2.77 g, 17-18 mm
RIC 396 2.03 g, 15-16 mm

Photo 2
RIC 370 2.30 g, 18-19 mm
RIC 396 1.66 g, 15.5-16.5 mm

Offline OldMoney

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1289
  • My Site! www.oldmoney.com.au
    • Walter Holt's Old Money
Re: Confirming RIC VII Rome 396 and Milne (FH).
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2019, 12:36:02 pm »
Merinda,
Mine is 15.5-16.9mm, and weighs 2.15g.
It is at the lower end, similar to your 396's.
Does anyone have a copy of the Fayum Hoard to check the weights
and/or diameters recorded therein by Milne? That may assist.

- Walter

So why isn't it RIC 370?

Callimachus,
That is the question. What are the differentiating factors? We assume
they are the weights and/or diameters. Can't immediately find what it
was that made RIC use two separate numbers for what appears to be
a very similar issue.

_ Walter
Coins of Ephesus
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/ephesuscoins
Walter Holt's Old Money - Ancient Coins
https://www.oldmoney.com.au
Sydney, Australia

Offline Callimachus

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 624
Re: Confirming RIC VII Rome 396 and Milne (FH).
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2019, 05:29:16 pm »
In my gallery of coins of Constantine and his family, I have 16 coins from the “Gloria Exercitvs” series: 8 of the earlier 2-standard coins, and 8 of the later 1-standard coins. As you are probably aware, the Roma and Constantinopolis coins are generally considered to be a part of this series. If you want to see photos of these 16 coins, look at the bottom of the page brought up by this link:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5151

Below are the weights and flan sizes of these coins.

2-standard coins, 330-335:
2.84 gm     17.5 mm
2.17 gm     16 mm
2.40 gm     18 mm
2.45 gm     17.5 mm
2.55 gm     17.5 mm
3.14 gm     18 mm (Roma)
2.56 gm     17 mm (Roma)
2.35 gm     19 mm (Constantinopolis)

2.55 average   17.56 average

1-standard coins, 335-337:
1.52 gm     17 mm
1.59 gm     16 mm
1.82 gm     17 mm
1.58 gm     15.5 mm
1.76 gm     17 mm
1.31 gm     16.5 mm
1.68 gm     14.5 mm (Roma)
1.49 gm     15 mm (Constantinopolis)

1.59 average   16.06 average

Looking at the data above, one can see the flan sizes seem to be about the same in each group, although when averaged, the average flan size of the 1-standard coins is about 1.5 mm smaller than the flan size of the 2-standard coins.

The weights of the 1-standard coins are all under 2 gm, and the average weight of the 1-standard coins is almost a gram (.96 gm) under that of the average weight of the 2-standard coins. When we are talking about coins that are generally under 3 gm to start with, a 1 gm difference in average weight is significant.

Admittedly, this is a small sample size, and there are a number of mints represented here. So, I do not know how much can be inferred from these numbers.

The flan size of your coin would fit either group, but the weight is clearly more than 2 grams. Therefore, I would say it is RIC 370.
RIC 370 is listed as coming only from officina Q, and the rarity factor (for what it is worth) is r2 rather than the r5 of RIC 396.

Other comments would be welcome, especially if you can show how I may have drawn some wrong conclusions from these numbers .

Offline SC

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6068
    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: Confirming RIC VII Rome 396 and Milne (FH).
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2019, 04:59:55 pm »
The flan size is largely irrelevant.  It might have slight meaning in a very large sample sizes, but it can't generally be relied upon for full accuracy.  The "accidents" of striking play too much of a role in the determination of the final flan diameter - how large was the original blank or pellet (they were not all carefully measured individually), how hot was it when struck, how much force was used on the striking (hammer weight, swing height, wielder strength, etc.).

A much better indicator is the die diameter, which can be found from the diameter of the ring of dots around the edge of the design - the pearl ring diameter or PRD.  This in fact is the only measurement on an individual coin that was an intentional product of the mint - the weight was by batch and the diameter of flan, as described above, was largely accidental but the PRD was intentional as it was engraved into each die which were in turn fitted into the minting equipment.

The size of the design can also provide clues, for example the length of the lupa capitoline (she-wolf), and is probably a better indicator than the flan size.  However, there can still be variations in size due to the end graver's own style.

So the best indicator to study to separate the two issues (330-336 AD and 336-341 AD) is the PRD.  Sadly you need to be able to see at least 1/3 of the PRD to get any chance at a measurement and obviously need at least half the PRD to be entirely certain.  This is not possible on many surviving examples.

My research on this entire period (the GLORIA EXERCITVS, VRBS ROMA, CONSTANTINOPOLIS and scarcer types) indicates that the PRD should be around 17-18 mm for the 330-336 issues and a much smaller 15-16 mm for the 336-341 issues.

SC




SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity