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Author Topic: Uncertain mint in Pontus, 120-63 BC Forepart of horse/countermark?  (Read 1660 times)

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Offline GIORGI G

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SNG BMC 984, Uncertain mint in Pontus, 120-63 BC. AE20, 1.97 gr. Forepart of horse right / Comet, or star of eight rays with tail. Lindgren III 154; SNG BMC 984

Hello all,

One question please : Does anyone has this coin with countermark ? couldnot find such one anywhere :( ? as usual its without it ... and what countermark is it ?

thanks in advance,

Offline shanxi

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Re: Uncertain mint in Pontus, 120-63 BC Forepart of horse/countermark?
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2019, 07:14:26 am »
There is a helmet countermark, which is quite common on Pontos coins.

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=6011556


You c/m is still partially covered  by sand patina, but it might be this c/m.


This is interessting because it is still discussed where these coins come from. Pontos is a likely possibilty and a Pontos countermark would confirm that.

Offline GIORGI G

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Re: Uncertain mint in Pontus, 120-63 BC Forepart of horse/countermark?
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2019, 07:33:08 am »
thanks for answer , should i clean it or leave as it is ?

Offline Altamura

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Re: Uncertain mint in Pontus, 120-63 BC Forepart of horse/countermark?
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2019, 01:34:43 pm »
You can find a countermark already on the "predecessors" of this type without the star on the obverse and reverse:
https://www.numismatikforum.de/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=49055#p410625

and also on the variant with the stars:
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3605460

Because of these predecessors I don't belive that it is a comet. On many specimes you clearly see that there is a tainia around the "tail", I never have seen a comet with a taenia  :-\:
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5112226

Additionally in my eyes it is not possible to decide whether it is really a helmet in the countermark or something else, there is too much dirt left around (if you turn it a bit then it could be Mickey Mouse  :)).

Regards

Altamura





Offline GIORGI G

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Re: Uncertain mint in Pontus, 120-63 BC Forepart of horse/countermark?
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2019, 12:14:32 am »
looks like head with helmeat :)

Offline cicerokid

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Re: Uncertain mint in Pontus, 120-63 BC Forepart of horse/countermark?
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2019, 05:15:23 am »
Why would a star be "crowned" with a taenia?

The palm-leaf? Really? Looks like anything to me!

If correctly identified then this blows the comet theory and Ramsey's archeao-astronimical work out of the water., and it's mention in "The poison king".

I do believe that there is a Tigranes the great tetradrachm with a so-called comet on its headdress panel but cannot find it on searching.

The Pontic bronze is interesting and countermarking wouldn't be a surprise given the amount of city taking and losing  during Mithradates reign(s).

Anyone like to do a write up on Mithradatic Pontic bronze?
Timeo Danaos afferentem coronas

Offline shanxi

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Re: Uncertain mint in Pontus, 120-63 BC Forepart of horse/countermark?
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2019, 05:47:40 am »
looks like head with helmeat :)

Cleaned it does not look like a common c/m on Pontos coins. There are also Medusa and Helios head countermarks on these types, but yours looks like a bust not a head.




I do believe that there is a Tigranes the great tetradrachm with a so-called comet on its headdress panel but cannot find it on searching.


This one ? https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=145485

Offline cicerokid

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Re: Uncertain mint in Pontus, 120-63 BC Forepart of horse/countermark?
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2019, 05:57:03 am »
Thanks for that Shanxi.

This brings us back to taenia or comet tail?

Why crown a star?

I'm sure Mithradtes's propaganda trip is still being presented taenia, tail or both. His reprensentations on the plentiful silver tetradrachms speak volumes.
Timeo Danaos afferentem coronas

Offline GIORGI G

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Re: Uncertain mint in Pontus, 120-63 BC Forepart of horse/countermark?
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2019, 06:06:53 am »
looks like head with helmeat :)

Cleaned it does not look like a common c/m on Pontos coins. There are also Medusa and Helios head countermarks on these types, but yours looks like a bust not a head.


Yep you are right, more like a bust with helmet , thanks for comment.

Offline Altamura

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Re: Uncertain mint in Pontus, 120-63 BC Forepart of horse/countermark?
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2019, 03:02:38 am »
We have two types with the only difference that one has a star added on both sides: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3500436
the other has not: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=2141295

I do not believe that the "thing" without the star is a comet tail alone  :), so it most probably is a palm branch with a tainia.

There can be found palm branches with a tainia on coins from Eusebeia in Cappadocia (where these horse-palm-star-coins perhaps can be located):
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b85025405
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8502541k
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=6005347

… Why would a star be "crowned" with a taenia?   The palm-leaf? Really? Looks like anything to me! ...
Why should the identity of the "thing" change by adding the star? The horse is still a horse, the tainia is still a tainia, why should the palm branch transform into something different?

… If correctly identified then this blows the comet theory and Ramsey's archeao-astronimical work out of the water., ...
Probably it does, at least partially  :-\.

In the 90's when Ramsey wrote his article, only a few of these starred coins have been known, those without stars probably not at all. This has dramatically changed within the last five years or so (together with the prices for these coins  :)).
Ramsey differentiated two varieties, one with letters around what he calls the tail and one without. Because the specimens he had at hand haven't been well centered, he misinterpreted the tainia as letters and missed that on his second variety in fact a little bit of the tainia still can be seen. The variants without the star aren't mentioned at all.

… and it's mention in "The poison king". ...
This is im my eyes more sensationalist entertainment than science  :(, I don't take it too seriously.

These coin types are still one of the more enigmatic ones  :).

Regards

Altamura

Offline GIORGI G

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Re: Uncertain mint in Pontus, 120-63 BC Forepart of horse/countermark?
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2019, 01:36:37 am »
my another one :)

Offline Altamura

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Re: Uncertain mint in Pontus, 120-63 BC Forepart of horse/countermark?
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2019, 04:17:47 pm »
Nice  :), with a very clear tainia.

Regards

Altamura

 

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