Need Help how was weight standard of this Abdera emission?

[Din X]

I do need help, this coin is currently for sale @ ebay and exactly this coin was sold before by two european auction houses.

For me his coin is a Becker forgery due to the too high weight 16.04 g all authentic coins I know of this emission with Apollo have between 9-11g and so this coin would weigh about 5 gram more than average which would be impossible and for me it is a die match to the Becker forgery in Hill 34 but seller doesn´t think so.

It would be very helpful to know the weight standard  of this Abdera emission?


PCW-G6629-THRACE, Abdera. 346-336 BC. Silver Stater (16.04 gm; 23 mm). Pausanias, magistrate. Griffin seated left, raising forepaw; above and below, magistrate's name EΠI ΠAYΣANIΩ / ABΔHPI-TEΩN, laureate head of Apollo right; all within shallow incuse square. May 467 (A310/P371); AMNG II 139; Weber 2388. Minor ding on the lower part of the cheek. Well struck on anice flan. Good metal. Nicely centered. Choice EF. Nice old-cabinet toning.


In one of the previous auctions was written

MONEDAS DE LOS GRIEGOS y sus enemigos
TRACIA. Abdera. 390-352 a.C. Tetradracma fenicio de peso fuerte. Grifo tumbado a izq. Cab. de Apolo. Peso 15´99 grs. Cy de la serie 1496 a 98 aunque de peso superior. S1551. 16 grs. MBC+. Acuñación del falsario W. Becker (1172-1830) que graba el magistrado en anv. y el nombre en rev.Nota del coleccionista: lote 3384. Busso Peus 380/381. 3 de Noviembre de 2004. Acompaña la etiqueta de cartón del lote.

So they were aware of the problem but still sold as authentic which I do not understand.

Picture 1-3 are pictures of the same coin whihc is imho Becker forgery
Picture 4 lead strike from Becker dies (he sold a whole collection of lead strikes of all of his forgeries)
Picture 5 my Becker forgery  

[Din X]

Picture 1 in this post is again my becker forgery my own picture and so the same coin as last post picture 5

Picture 2 is Hill 34

Picture 3 is authentic coin from this emission (with of course correct weight 11.24g ^^) which Becker tried to copy but the hair and face is a little bit different and the position of the letters is different.

Authentic coins can be seen here but all with emission correct weights between 9-11g

https://www.corpus-nummorum.eu/coins.php?search=Abdera&view=thr_coins&sort=id&order=asc&user=&tablet=&skip=90&range=90

[Joe Sermarini]

Looks like a die match to me too.

[Din X]

For me it is a die match too and another expert from another forum thought the same.
I was before already 99,99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 % sure and after you agreed I am 100%.
My problem is that the seller (I have send picture of my example and the lead impression, which I have posted here, too) and seller said for him it is no die match to my specimen so...
He did of course no tell why he thinks so and if it is at least a die mtach to the specimen shown in Hill (have posted picture here too) or the lead strike.

If there is the smallest difference to another coin from the same dies some sellers or experts from auction houses will pretend different dies no matter if the small difference can be explained due to artificial aging (wear, scratces) or differences due to striking or differnces due to pictures (camera axis, camera seetings, camera quality, lumination).

They will of course ignore the fact that the fake is a fake from modern hand cutted dies and that there are so always significant detail and style differences to authentic specimenes who cares and that there are more fakes with the same style from the same artis (Becker has made fakes from different mints, emperors and times), that coins from the same artis from different mints times and emperors can not exist who cares ....
And it is of course not a problem that there are no die matches or die links to proven authentic examples in museums, who cares ^^
(But there are die matches to this coins in many museum but there as Becker counterfeits of then the cheap lead strikes silver ones are rarer).

The weight standard of this emission would have been helpful because it would have been ultimate prove that the coin is wrong 50 % higher weight than other coins from same emission is impossible and should have been recognized by experts from auction houses and  dealer.
If the weight is too high one of the steps would be checking if the coin is a forgery.
Old forgeries often have wrong weight because the knowledge about ancient coins was limited at the time of Becker and so collectors did not know how authentic coins have to look like and what die axis weight , flan shape, edge cracks authentic examples should have. Die studies did not exist and literature was limited and the coins shown there were drawn only way to see authentic coins was coin cabinett.


Why does no one care that the weight of a coin is 50 % too high (16 g) ?
I am not familiar with this issue only with Becker counterfeits so I do not know the weight standard only that the weight of this emission with apollo seemsto be not much higher that 11g and often lower due to wear or corrosion.
I think that the weight standard was about 12 g but I have only found specimens with 9-11g at acsearch and museum collections.

Earlier coins from this mint have of course higher weight but the weight has decreads with time like on other mints, too.

 I do not understand why they do not care for the weight standard of some emission!

[JBF]

What does the die study on Abdera say as far as weight standards? (May).
There is some complexity regarding weight standards for Abdera.

It should be obvious why some dealers would consider the coin authentic in the face of contrary
evidence.  If it is authentic it is, say, $800, if it is a replica it is $40, if it is salable at all.  That
does not mean the dealer is consciously ignoring the evidence.  People have an amazing
capacity of self-deception.

[Din X]

What does the die study on Abdera say as far as weight standards? (May).
There is some complexity regarding weight standards for Abdera.

It should be obvious why some dealers would consider the coin authentic in the face of contrary
evidence.  If it is authentic it is, say, $800, if it is a replica it is $40, if it is salable at all.  That
does not mean the dealer is consciously ignoring the evidence.  People have an amazing
capacity of self-deception.

He has ended the listing so it seems like he as noticed that it is actually a Becker forgery.

I have "J. F. May, The Coinage of Abdera (540-345 BC), edited by Colin Kraay and G. K. Jenkins, London, 1966"
But I have not found anything about the weight standard for THIS late emission.
I have checked the plates but the coins there were different to the Becker forgery in many details although the style of Becker is very good and close to authentic coins from this emission.
To the weights of the coins pictured at the plates from this emission and the mentioned die matching coins all do weigh less than 12g (in most cases a little bit less or more than 11g)
only one in the book mentioned coin had 13 g (very suspicious).
The coins in museum collections available online and the examples in acsearch all had less than 12 g and all in the book shown or mentioned specimens except the one with 13g.

 

  
 

[JBF]

The first section of May is about weight standards, which for Abdera are pretty complex and change.
That may be obvious from reading May, but I thought I would mention it.
My guess is that you are probably right about it being a forgery, probably.
But, if you haven't gone through the first section, you haven't crossed the i's and dotted the t's.
IMO

[Din X]

The first section of May is about weight standards, which for Abdera are pretty complex and change.
That may be obvious from reading May, but I thought I would mention it.
My guess is that you are probably right about it being a forgery, probably.
But, if you haven't gone through the first section, you haven't crossed the i's and dotted the t's.
IMO

The coin is without a doubt a Becker forgery and has been withdrawn now, die match to the example in Hill and weight standard (Persian) of this Apollo emissions was 11.2 g and so 16g is impossible !

And my coin is a die match to the Becker forgery too, many Greek Becker forgeries have an old toning and too strong and often emission untypical edge cracks and some but not all have wrong weight.

Do I really have to be an Abdera specialist to detect a Becker Abdera forgery or is it enough to be a Becker specialist?

How can there be any doubt if a coin is a perfect die match to a publishe fake from modern hand cutted dies (by Becker) especially if the weight of the coin is about 50 % too high?

I do not understand why I do have to justify myself always and no matter how good my arguments are people are still complaining, if other Experts say fake then all agree and they do not justify themself their name is enough.

If two persons are saysing the same it is not the same, if one of them as a well known name they will agree with and the other one they will most likely ignore although he says the same.

If you have May, then it would have been very kind to post the weight standards after  I have kindly asked for it?

Your comment JBF is not helpful, because you have not posted anything I have not know so far.

I didn´t want to buy a book which is expensive and which is about coins I do not collect or care about and which I do not want to read.

But I thought that this would have been and actually is an ultimate prove that the coin is fake if the weight is 4.8 g too high and so he could not dispute that it must be a forgery and then he could admit that it is actually a die match to the Becker forgery. But it seems like the seller has checked Hill to and the weight of this emission and so made what a reliable dealer had to do.

It is idealism to spend own money and time to remove fakes but it can be frustrating if there is no support (giving information I need from books or experience or knowledge etc.)

I can often recognize fakes even if I am not familiar with the coin type (all fakes have problems and I know the common problems of fakes), so I know that the coin is fake but to prove that the coin is fake some emission specific information can be helpful, I can of course conclued much by myself but it is better if I can quote a book with this information because  people think if this information is written in a well know book must be correct. It is not important if an information is true it is only important that people believe it is true.

I DO NOT GET MONEY IF ANY COIN GETS WITHDRAWN BUT IT OFTEN COSTS ME MONEY (literature etc.) AND MUCH OF MY PRECIOUS LEISURE TIME !



PAGE 8

Period VIII
375/3-365/360   Tetradrachms      Persian (weight standard)

Persian weight standard didrachm was 11,2 g, so their tetradrachms were minted at weight standard of Persian didrachms.

The coins Becker imitates are group CXXII  ( coins P368-P382 ) but all fitting coins with Apollo are listed in May under  375/3-365/360  so it doesn´t matter

May pretends that this coins were struck at a weight standard of 11,2 g this is about what I have calculated by looking at the weight of all known examples I could find which all had the weight of about 11g. But I thought it could have been a little bit higher than 11.2 but lower than 12g becasue you have to reconstruct the average weight of the coins after they were minted so without wear and corrosion.
And this is how May has reconstructed the weight standard, you calculte average weight of all coins of one emission you of course consider lower weight of some coins due to wear or corrosion and add some weight to get back to the weight they had after minting. Than you do this with other denominations and then you compare them to other weight standards of other mints to look for matches.

So concerning May they must have been struck under Persian weight standard und must have about 11.2 g, all examples I have seen so far at acseach, museums and May´s book have about this weight of 11 g except the Becker forgery with 16g which is a die match to the fake shown in Hills book and the other coin mentioned in May´s book with 13g (very suspicious and likely fake).

The problem here is dating the coins May have dated so early are dated at acsearch and museum collections much later for example 346/5-336 BC !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was looking for the weight standard of the coins minted 346/5-336 BC  in May´s book and there is no weight standard for this emissions ! 346/5-336 BC this is how most Museums and auction houses are dating this emissions with Apollo.

But I did neglect that May is dating them 375/3-365/360 instead of 346/5-336.

See museum collection Berlin here where they are dated 346/5-336

https://www.corpus-nummorum.eu/coins.php?search=Abdera&view=thr_coins&sort=id&order=asc&user=&tablet=&skip=90&range=90