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Author Topic: Augustus hispania mint denarius - authentication help  (Read 834 times)

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Offline amiuspius

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Augustus hispania mint denarius - authentication help
« on: January 16, 2019, 09:07:16 pm »
Hello. Here is an denarius of augustus I bought recently from a reputable dealer. Weight is 3.52grams

First, the coin did not ring like silver when dropped, and when I compared to sound it made to my other denarius, it did make different sound. The sound is the biggest thing that bothers me. It sounds dull like plastic I think. it may be crystallized, but I am not sure. surface also looks like tin I think.

I am also suspicious that it can be tooled. especially hair part.

 And there is banker's mark on both side, I think mark on obverse is Ok, but F mark on reverse is not familiar to me. I have not seen that type of banker's mark before.

 The diameter and weight, the maximum diameter is 22mm and weight is 3.52g. Is not it a little bit low weight and wide flan for augustus denarius?

 And the last, How do you think about appearance? I mean, can you sure its authenticity when you see it first time? I think potrait and letter is too sharp. I searched fake coin report but I could not find similar one.

Also about toning, I did not polish or clean it on purpose, I just grabbed in my hand rubbed with my fingers.

 Any comment can help me. Thank you.

Online Jay GT4

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Re: Augustus hispania mint denarius - authentication help
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2019, 10:41:51 pm »
Everytime I hear someone doing a ring "test" on an ancient denarius I cringe....so dangerous and it proves nothing.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Augustus hispania mint denarius - authentication help
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2019, 09:34:56 am »
I do not see anything suspicious about the coin. No tooling. The banker's mark is normal.  I agree with Jay - don't ring test ancient coins.
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Offline amiuspius

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Re: Augustus hispania mint denarius - authentication help
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2019, 08:18:19 pm »
I do not see anything suspicious about the coin. No tooling. The banker's mark is normal.  I agree with Jay - don't ring test ancient coins.


Thank you for comment. How do you think about sound?

Offline amiuspius

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Re: Augustus hispania mint denarius - authentication help
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2019, 08:19:39 pm »
Everytime I hear someone doing a ring "test" on an ancient denarius I cringe....so dangerous and it proves nothing.

Thank you for advice. Then, how do you think about sound difference compared with other 'normal' silver denarius?

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Augustus hispania mint denarius - authentication help
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2019, 08:37:16 pm »
I think the sound is not important and you risk breaking a crystallized coin, some of which look perfectly normal on the outside.
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Offline PMah

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Re: Augustus hispania mint denarius - authentication help
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2019, 09:40:37 pm »
amiuspius, you might want to ask these questions to the dealer who sold it.  If the coin is appealing to you, then engage the dealer in a discussion about the coin, including things you are concerned about, and you may learn a lot more than you would expect.   The dealer might be great and informative.  Certainly Jay and Joe were able to address your concerns on-line, but that's what you paid the dealer to do. 

   A lot of new collectors on this board post about authenticity concerns and those new collectors seem to be more worried about the coins than excited about the coins.  Coin collecting should be enjoyable, not worrisome.  (I received 2 coins in the mail today and I was so excited that I opened the envelope while standing at my mailbox!  Which is actually pretty dumb to do.   ;D ;D)
    One way of changing that feeling is to buy from dealers who have been in business for a while, and who guarantee authenticity, in writing.  (Some, like Forum, are members of organizations that require dealer-members to make such guarantees.  Then you can put that worry to the side for a while and concentrate on enjoying the coin and learning about numismatics
   "Buy the book before the coin" is an old saying, but it really is true.  And I would emphasize "book", as basic internet information is often just plain wrong.  For example, I have never read any numismatic book talking about the "ring test"  -- but people on the internet talk about it.  The same way people on the internet talk about a lot of things that are not accurate.  There are also great numismatic articles on Forum, which will lead you to other resources.  The coin you purchased is not really a "beginner's" coin, and so you probably feel a bit of anxiety about the amount you spent for it.  A good dealer could address some of those questions, but looking at a lot of coins, starting with pretty basic coins, is even better.
   Every fake coin I ever bought was from the internet, from an on-line only seller, whose name and reputation were only established by the website itself, and the item was something I thought was a great price.   I have since learned my lesson.
   Enjoy your coin -- it's pretty nice and commemorates a very specific moment in Augustus's life -- and sometimes banker's marks were put right in the middle of the face!
Be Well, Stay Healthy, Support your Local Numismatic Club

Paul 

My Gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album

Offline amiuspius

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Re: Augustus hispania mint denarius - authentication help
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2019, 03:34:40 am »
amiuspius, you might want to ask these questions to the dealer who sold it.  If the coin is appealing to you, then engage the dealer in a discussion about the coin, including things you are concerned about, and you may learn a lot more than you would expect.   The dealer might be great and informative.  Certainly Jay and Joe were able to address your concerns on-line, but that's what you paid the dealer to do. 

   A lot of new collectors on this board post about authenticity concerns and those new collectors seem to be more worried about the coins than excited about the coins.  Coin collecting should be enjoyable, not worrisome.  (I received 2 coins in the mail today and I was so excited that I opened the envelope while standing at my mailbox!  Which is actually pretty dumb to do.   ;D ;D)
    One way of changing that feeling is to buy from dealers who have been in business for a while, and who guarantee authenticity, in writing.  (Some, like Forum, are members of organizations that require dealer-members to make such guarantees.  Then you can put that worry to the side for a while and concentrate on enjoying the coin and learning about numismatics
   "Buy the book before the coin" is an old saying, but it really is true.  And I would emphasize "book", as basic internet information is often just plain wrong.  For example, I have never read any numismatic book talking about the "ring test"  -- but people on the internet talk about it.  The same way people on the internet talk about a lot of things that are not accurate.  There are also great numismatic articles on Forum, which will lead you to other resources.  The coin you purchased is not really a "beginner's" coin, and so you probably feel a bit of anxiety about the amount you spent for it.  A good dealer could address some of those questions, but looking at a lot of coins, starting with pretty basic coins, is even better.
   Every fake coin I ever bought was from the internet, from an on-line only seller, whose name and reputation were only established by the website itself, and the item was something I thought was a great price.   I have since learned my lesson.
   Enjoy your coin -- it's pretty nice and commemorates a very specific moment in Augustus's life -- and sometimes banker's marks were put right in the middle of the face!

First, Thank you so much for kind comment.

Yes, about the dealer, you are right. but I wish to get opinion of experts in the forum which is famous for professionalism. That's why I asked at forum and I am satisfied and thanks to you all who helped me. I also think experts in the forum can view my coin objectively than the dealer.

And the dealer is famous for dealing ancient coins and has a long history. In wikipedia, I can find many pictures from the dealer which is quoted alot. So I think my coin is almost 100% genuine. But anyone can make mistake.

I of course happy to get this nice coin in my hand :) I have some books - David Sear's Roman coins and their value and another author's ancient coins collecting. But book was not enough for me. I think I need more study and reading.

And I attach one more picture, though the color difference between two coins is not clear in the picture, my augustus denarius is much more white than aurelius denarius in the picture. that is why I thought it may be not silver. Color and sound - I will not ring test again though - are the points that I worried.

Anyway, Thank you again!

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Augustus hispania mint denarius - authentication help
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2019, 10:36:35 am »
Both coins are normal color for silver, which varies considerably, from near white to solid dark black, with incredible variations in between.  
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Offline PMah

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Re: Augustus hispania mint denarius - authentication help
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2019, 01:06:53 am »
Amiuspius, I have read all your posts, and all of them express concern about authenticity.   You doubt experts with ideas you get from the internet, like the ring test.  These folks know what they are saying, at least with as much certainty as anyone can have from a photo.
  Don't worry so much!  If the cost of your coins makes you worry about authenticity, buy less expensive coins and learn from them.  Cheaper  coins show color, strike, wear and damage that more expensive coins might not show.  But they are all "real" coins.  Spend only "2 glasses of good beer" per coin for a few coins, and learn about these factors.
  Or, spend time looking online for cheaper coins from established dealers.  Look at Forum's "budget" category  and the coins on Forum's member auction pages, which are real but usually lower-priced.
  Or, look at the galleries on this site.  For example,  my gallery has some 1st rate Roman denarii, and some coins that are very imperfect.  You can see wear, marks, encrustation, toning, weight and size variables, and sometimes damage.   But they are all authentic.  Many other galleries have a similar mix.  Look at the less-impressive coins and learn what an honest "high mileage" coin really looks like.  Spend your time and money on knowledge.

And, above all,   "Don't worry, Be happy"!
Be Well, Stay Healthy, Support your Local Numismatic Club

Paul 

My Gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album

Offline amiuspius

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Re: Augustus hispania mint denarius - authentication help
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2019, 10:16:42 pm »
Now I see your reply.

Thank you so much for reading all my posts. Yes, I always try to buy coins from reliable dealer like Forum but fear of getting fakes always bother me even I buy coins from reliable dealer.

About ring test, I will follow you and Mr sermarini's advice, though sound and color still bothers me a little :) (I just wonder why only this 'silver' coin sounds different)

You are right. more study, better view. But as I don't live in USA, Internet is almost only chance to get information about ancient coins. There are many bad informations and good ones mixed in internets, that's why I usually get informations and ask questions here the forum.  

I bought many coins from Forum and I like here as many kind experts like you help beginners alot. I will visit your gallery and others too.

Thank you again!

 

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