Strange imitative coin. What could it be?

[Byzantofil]

The coin is not a modern fake, but it is clearly an imitation of some byzantine coin. The specific pair Christ / Theotokos Nikopea (?) as a whole is a strange combination at all. The closest iconographically to this coin is anonymous follis class G. By size (20 mm.) and weight 3.7 grams this coin is closer to tetarterons. I am not too familiar with the entire iconography of copper tetarterons, especially after 1204, so I would be glad to hear what the experts say. But, I repeat, it is all very similar to imitation. The question in this case is what exactly served as the prototype? Maybe some crusaders coin?

[Simon]

It is an imitation of SBCV-1929 Alexius I. Interestingly this imitation could have been made long after his death, both his and his grandson Manuel tetartera was imitated until the 13th century. One of the main reasons is these coins were never taken out of circulation , they continued to be used for decades but only in the Greek part of the empire. They were not part of the normal coinage used in Asia Minor, Trachea was the main coin there.

I have a gallery of 14 examples of imitated tetartera, I have many others so I need to add to it.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=6572

[Byzantofil]

Dear Simon!
Thank you for your opinion and attention. You suggested that this is an imitation of Alexius tetarteron. I also suggested this from the very beginning, but I was somewhat embarrassed by the fact that where Alexius should be, instead, depicted a figure with a nimbus and without any attributes of emperor's power, most likely with arms near the chest, like that of the Virgin Nicopea.
What do you think about this?

[Simon]

I am not sure that is a nimbus, but the clothes seem to match the design of an emperors garb,  also especially the scepter across the r shoulder. The imitation coinage never got it spot on. The only thing I would bring up is the weight, most of the imitation coins were underweight this one?


Any way you look at it , it is a crudely made coin giving me the impression it is an imitation.

[Simon]

Other ideas an imitation of a k class follis . Again I see the XC on the obverse but the garb does not look right for Christ.

[Byzantofil]

Did you mean the imitation of the G class follis (see below)?

What about Christ figure on the our strange imitation.
As I see the left hand — there is a hand under the himatium, and the right one holds the Gospel, depicted very primitively — two points are visible, apparently, precious stones on the cover of the book.
On the reverse — I think that there is still a nimbus, and something on the chest, such as a hand with a palm up, isn’t it?

[Simon]

Yes, I stand corrected, class G, I have an example that is small flan and weighs around 5gm, however mine does not appear to be an imitation. Just a reduction in weight. The follis before the Alexius coin reform became very light in weight. The coin was replaced by the three denominations of tetartera.

Here is an example of an imitation SBCV-1929, the coin I think it favors, however I could be easily incorrect.

ALEXIUS AE TETARTERON S-1929 DOC 38 CLBC 2.4.5 Imitation
OBV Bust of Christ, bearded and nimbate, wearing tunic and kolobion; holds gospels open in l. hand. Pellet in each limb of nimbus cross.

REV. Bust facing wearing stemma, divitision, and chlamys; holds in r. hand scepter cruciger, and in l. Globus cruciger.

Size 20mm

Weight 2.5gm



DOC lists 9 examples with weight s for SBCV-1929 regular issue running from 1.82gm to 5.10gm and size from 18mm to 22mm

This is a strange example, Alexius side fits the norm a bit cruder but with good detail, the Christ side lacks the book and Christ's blessing. Imitations of this particular type of coin were created well into the 14th century.  

[Byzantofil]

You know, it still seems to me that the type of this imitative tetarteron doesn't have one prototype, most likely it's a hybrid type without any real ruler, but just simply combining images of Christ and the Mother of God  from the obverses of two different tetarterons:

[Simon]

I don't think I would have used the same examples as you did but one other option was overstrikes or a mule as you suggested, but both of those ideas would suggest that this is a legitimate issue. Overstrikes for Alexius tetartera are common but on the previous coinage only, the coins issued before the coin reform.

Here is are a few  examples

ALEXIUS AE TETARTERON S-1929 DOC 38 CLBC 2.4.5
OBV Bust of Christ, bearded and nimbate, wearing tunic and kolobion; holds gospels open in l. hand. Pellet in each limb of nimbus cross.

REV. Bust facing wearing stemma, divitision, and chlamys; holds in r. hand scepter cruciger, and in l. Globus cruciger.

Size 21.97mm

Weight 2.9gm

DOC lists 9 examples with weight s running from 1.82gm to 5.10gm and size from 18mm to 22mm

1930 ALEXIUS AE TETARTERON S-1930 DOC 39 CLBC 2.4.6

OBV Bust of Virgin nimbate, orans, wearing tunic and maphorion.

REV Bust of emperor wearing stemma, divitision and chlamys; holds in r. hand labarum on a long shaft and in l. Globus cruciger.

Size 22.75

Weight 3.6mm

DOC lists 5 examples with weights ranging from 2.05gm to 4.02gm and sizes ranging from 20mm to 22m

ALEXIUS AE TETARTERON S-1931 DOC 40 CLBC 2.4.7 SBCV-1910???
OBV Jeweled radiate Cross, decorated at the end of each limb with one large globule and two smaller, all on two steps.

REV. Bust of emperor wearing stemma, divitision and jeweled loros of traditional type; holds in r. hand scepter cruciger and in l. Globus cruciger.

Size 25/22mm

Weight 3.2gm

This example is more than likely the coin listed as S-1910 , Sear 1931 struck over a Class I or Class K anonymous follis. Hendys ( S-1910) lists at 2.96gm around 23mm

[Simon]

Additional note , all three of the coins I posted were official issues, not imitative. The denomination was used for change especially when paying taxes, you paid in  gold and got your change in silver and tetartera.

The reason that their are so many imitative coins of tetartera is they were still be used long after they had been minted. Several articles have pointed out that the simple issues were recreated decades after their rules, normally Alexius and his grandson Manuel Comnenus.

[Byzantofil]

Moreover, I believe that the mass clipping of the Byzantine copper folles of several classes that took place in Asia Minor at this time is also associated with the transition to a new copper standard based on tetarteron.

[Simon]

I agree but not in Asia Minor, the tetarteron was used in Greece and in the capitol Constantinople , it did not circulate in Asia Minor but the trachea did. This is a very interesting mystery but the coins did not coexsist outside of the capital. Also the Aspron Trachy was used in Greece,  but not in Asia Minor.  This was proven by hoard finds. ( This changes in the 13th century.)


Here is a want to be tetarteron that I bought from a seller in Iceland.

Resized Byzantine Follis , Tetarteron
Strange find, an anonymous follis that was cut down to the size of a Tetarteron.

Size 20mm

Weight 5.0gm

[Byzantofil]

Yes, these are such coins.
About the Asia Minor origin of the huge mass of the clipped folles, I judge on the characteristic Syrian red earth over the same characteristic dark patina. And the fact that a large number of Alexis I Comnenus tetarterones (mostly, so-called Thessalonian type) - are finds in Syria is also confirmed by the tetarterons in the same Syrian dust and patina, entering to the numismatic markets from this region. That's true, recently dishonest traders began to glue this dust artificially, but I'm talking about the original material that I saw myself.

[Simon]

I believe what you are reporting, the information I am referring to is the noted hoard finds and coin losses. It is a bit of a mystery because the trachea and the tetarteron had two separate values, the tetarteron being lower. However the tetarteron is rarely found in Asia Minor before the 13th century and trachea were rarely found in the Greek part of the empire. When the empire falls to the Latins the tetarteron begins appearing as newly minted coins in the breakaway states of Asia Minor. Even Bulgaria did not use the tetarteron, they used tracheas in that region. 

The problem with this is , Did things cost more in those parts of the empire? If not Did they have a credit system in place?


The imitation tetartera I am not certain where they were found but I believe in the Greek part. This only started coming to light in the past 20 years, again this causes more problems because they were light weight counterfeits or imitations and those were included in the weights for the original studies done by Hendy and Metcalf  in the 1960's, that really messes up the known weights for the coins.


So the coins you are seeing , were they found with other issues? Anything to give an idea on when they were buried? Was it pre reform coins ( Before 1092) or coins found after 13th century or ?