Author Topic: Ardashir I Fake? (Read 1755 times)

arash p · « **on:** September 23, 2018, 09:04:33 pm »

Hi All

What is your thought on this coin? The surface lacks the patina and when I drop it on the table it rings. A collector told me its fake since it rings which is an indication of modern silver. Is this accurate?

The weight of coin is 4.3 gram

I just want to understand if it is fake I just take it out of my collection and put in the black box. By the way, As always told, I did bought it from a well reputed dealer but when the friend of mine who is a dealer/collector told me about the issue with ring test I am worried about it now.

I appreciate your helps.

cmcdon0923 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 24, 2018, 12:28:53 am »

I may be way off here, but I believe the ring test is more indicative of a coin that was struck versus cast. The "ring" is a result of the compression of the metal resulting from the pressure of the striking between the dies.

Again, I have no scientific facts to back this up, it's just what I have been led to believe from collecting other coins besides ancients, but (semi) logically I think it should be applicable to ancients too.

Joe Sermarini · « **Reply #2 on:** September 24, 2018, 02:27:38 am »

Quote from: arash p on September 23, 2018, 09:04:33 pm

A collector told me its fake since it rings which is an indication of modern silver. Is this accurate?

No, it is not accurate. But do not try the ring test on ancient coins. Not ringing usually does not mean anything and ancient coins sometimes break when dropped.

traveler · « **Reply #3 on:** September 24, 2018, 06:05:11 am »

The ring test only indicates if a coin is relatively solid silver or not. It doesn't help with authenticity. Although I'd say it's not a good sign if a coin which is known to have been struck from very high purity silver (e.g. a denarius of Tiberius) fails the ring test.

However as Joe said, it's not a good idea to subject ancient silver coins to the ring test. The coin may break for a variety of reasons (crystallisation, internal corrosion etc).

arash p · « **Reply #4 on:** September 27, 2018, 02:44:15 am »

Thanks for help guys. so if an ancient coin rings with longer pitch doesnt mean it is modern right? because that guy told me ancient metal does not ring with high pitch due to internal corrosion .

by the way I did XRF on this coin and it had 98% silver 0.7% gold and 0.1% lead and rest copper. is this correct for ardashir coins?

Thanks again for help

traveler · « **Reply #5 on:** September 27, 2018, 05:58:26 am »

Arash

As mentioned, the ring test (pass or fail) does not indicate whether the coin is modern or not. I find it surprising that your collector contact told you ancient metal doesn't ring. I would take his/her future advice with a lot of salt.

I have no idea about the metal composition of ardashir coins, but since you said you bought it from a well reputed dealer there should not be any grounds for suspicion.

arash p · « **Reply #6 on:** September 27, 2018, 08:30:00 am »

Thanks Traveler for help. I should mention that there is one more fact about the coin that makes me a bit uneasy with it. it is that I did not find a die match for it with recorded examples and reference book. The seller provided G-10 (Gobl-10) but It seems the style of bust and hair of ardashir not matching most examples I see in acsearch for G-10. I hope someone who is sasanian expert can shed some light on this. I appreciate if someone can find a die match of the coin with same reverse and obverse .

Joe Sermarini · « **Reply #7 on:** September 29, 2018, 01:11:28 pm »

Not finding a die match is only and indicator of forgery for very rare types known from only a few well published dies. I don't think that applies to this type. Asking for someone to find die matches for you is absurd.

arash p · « **Reply #8 on:** September 29, 2018, 09:58:01 pm »

Thanks Joe. The reason I ask others is I dont have any comprehensive book or resource with images of all ardashir coins to use so I thought maybe someone has access to such resources or have seen the die match of this coin somewhere else.

areich · « **Reply #9 on:** September 30, 2018, 03:23:22 am »

There usually isn't a resource listing all dies for coin types where many coins were minted. Even if there were, it would take many hours to find a die match in such a, it would have to be a database, not a book. As Joe said, for types that were only minted for a short time, from a limited and known number of dies, such listings may be available. In those cases a new dies is cause for suspicion.

What you need here is someone familiar with these coins in aprticular to tell you whether it looks good. I am not familiar with them, to me there is nothing that would make me suspicious.
Finally, I am just going to agree that the ring test is completely useless for ancients and even dangerous. You can sort of guess which coins might break easily but not reliably, after all I can't really test my suspicion and end ub breaking a bunch of coins I paid good money for.

Pekka K · « **Reply #10 on:** September 30, 2018, 04:10:02 am »

This is the same coin and same pictures:

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=4985609

Pekka K

arash p · « **Reply #11 on:** September 30, 2018, 08:41:33 am »

@areich thanks so much for help. I understand what you mean so I was hoping if there are some sasanian experts here to validate the style etc for this coin.

@Pekka yes that is my coin but I was trying to find another one same on acsearch but did not find it.

By the way just to let you guys know , there are some dangerous Ardashir fakes that I would not believe for my life that were fake if I did not come across this link in Zeno and 2 of them sold in a major auction house.

https://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=137719

Joe Sermarini · « **Reply #12 on:** September 30, 2018, 04:18:38 pm »

The fake you posted is a CAST fake. The style is meaningless, it is a cast of a genuine coin. The style perfectly matches the genuine coin that was used to make the mold. Die matches are meaningless, it is a cast of a genuine coin. The dies perfectly match the genuine coin that was used to make the mold.

Your coin was authenticated by an expert dealer. There is NOTHING you can gain from posting it here. NOTHING. You need to ignore your friends who apparently know very little about coins.

arash p · « **Reply #13 on:** September 30, 2018, 04:39:33 pm »

I totally agree with you Joe. But the link I sent also shows the same cast fake was sold at the same auction house. I totally know that auction is a major and very professional auction house but mistakes can happen as for anyone no matter how trusted they are. as there was this case shows it. So I just wanted to make sure the coin I got is not one of those 1% chances coin which was missed by them

Joe Sermarini · « **Reply #14 on:** October 01, 2018, 02:14:11 am »

No, you do not totally agree with me. If you did, you would not have posted your question. Your coin was authenticated IN HAND by an expert dealer. There is NOTHING you can gain from posting a PHOTO here.

djmacdo · « **Reply #15 on:** October 01, 2018, 07:38:24 am »

Arash,

You can save a lot of time and anxiety by buying only coins you are sure are real.

arash p · « **Reply #16 on:** October 01, 2018, 11:14:16 pm »

Thanks Djmacdo I buy from reliable dealers always but as the forgers get better even reliable deslers get tricked from time to time.

please look at this link below . I am not making it up im talking based on facts. so the only coins I can be fully assured are hoard coins but those are hard to come by.

https://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=137719

traveler · « **Reply #17 on:** October 02, 2018, 01:35:26 am »

Arash

You started this thread asking about patina and the ring test. Then subsequently you included a link to another website with images of a cast Ardashir coin. Did you already know about the website when you started this thread? If you did, then you should include all information from the start. Or are you searching for other possible reasons as you go along?

Yes, even reliable dealers make mistakes. If you read the other threads on this board there is at least one recent example.

But if you believe the dealer is reliable, and the dealer has seen the coin in hand, then it's a little far fetched to post a photo and ask people to second guess it. Unless you already have strong grounds to suspect that the coin is fake... e.g. if you find images of an exact twin to your coin on sale somewhere else.

arash p · « **Reply #18 on:** October 02, 2018, 09:18:05 am »

Yes assuming the dealer did examine each and every coin in hand then you are right. But do we know that for all auctions they examine each of coins? I doubt it.

Jay GT4 · « **Reply #19 on:** October 02, 2018, 10:55:51 am »

Then get a new hobby...

arash p · « **Reply #20 on:** October 02, 2018, 02:39:03 pm »

I might Jay almost at the point to give up this amazing hobby out of fear of getting fakes. I wish I could find the hoard coins of Ardashir somehow. If anyone has a Hoard coin of Ardashir I am happy to make a great deal with him and pay good money for it. For example this coin was found in a hoard but the owner doesn't want to sell it . I would be happy to pay 3000$ for a coin like this even broken but be sure it is hoard and real deal.

https://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=164777

Joe Sermarini · « **Reply #21 on:** October 02, 2018, 06:02:00 pm »

"Sky is falling" posts are not permitted here. Arash P, you should find another hobby. Ancient coin collecting is not for you.

arash p · « **Reply #22 on:** October 02, 2018, 06:49:38 pm »

Good news guys I just contacted the auction house and they said the owner does examine every sasanian coins as he is expert in sasanian so I am more relieved now. Sasanian are being fake alot these days my guts feeling is they fake sasanian more than romans nowadays.

News:

Author Topic: Ardashir I Fake? (Read 1755 times)