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Author Topic: Identification of a Ptolemy AE16, 4.1gm Bronze would be appreciated.  (Read 1709 times)

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Offline coldavo

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Hi All,

I have a Ptolemy bronze AE16, 4.1gm (normal Zeus/single eagle) on its way to my collection. To my eyes it appears to be a denomination between Svoronos 1407 (8gm) and Svoronos 1408 (2.1gm).

Of course it might be a VERY heavy Sv1408 or a VERY light Sv1407 but there appears to be a number of these mid-weight coins in existence that show a fairly standard in-between weight and size.

Catherine Lorber, in her “The lotus of Aphrodite..” mentions both a similar weight/size coin with “EYL” between the legs (Plate 5,16) and another without the “EYL” (Plate 6,21). She shows the Svoronos reference numbers on most of her illustrations but omits it from these two coins which leads me to suppose that she couldn’t tie them up with Svoronos.
Svoronos’ and ptolemybronze’s weights for Sv1402 are 8.2gm and 8gm and for Sv1408 are 2.25gm and 2.1gm. Lorber’s weights for the EYL coin is 3.5gm and for the non EYL coin is 3.18-4.34gms (showing That a number coins are in the study). My coin, at 4.1gm seems to fit into this latter category.

My coin and Lorber’s (both EYL and plain) appear to fit neatly into the middle of the coins listed by Svoronos and are standard enough in their weights to be a middle denomination.

I would appreciate identification of my coin and information as to whether a middle denomination has been proposed or confirmed for both the EYL and non-EYL coins.

All the best,
Col

Offline PtolemAE

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    • The PtolemAE Project - Ptolemaic Bronzes

Hi All,

I have a Ptolemy bronze AE16, 4.1gm (normal Zeus/single eagle) on its way to my collection. To my eyes it appears to be a denomination between Svoronos 1407 (8gm) and Svoronos 1408 (2.1gm).

Of course it might be a VERY heavy Sv1408 or a VERY light Sv1407 but there appears to be a number of these mid-weight coins in existence that show a fairly standard in-between weight and size.

Catherine Lorber, in her “The lotus of Aphrodite..” mentions both a similar weight/size coin with “EYL” between the legs (Plate 5,16) and another without the “EYL” (Plate 6,21). She shows the Svoronos reference numbers on most of her illustrations but omits it from these two coins which leads me to suppose that she couldn’t tie them up with Svoronos.
Svoronos’ and ptolemybronze’s weights for Sv1402 are 8.2gm and 8gm and for Sv1408 are 2.25gm and 2.1gm. Lorber’s weights for the EYL coin is 3.5gm and for the non EYL coin is 3.18-4.34gms (showing That a number coins are in the study). My coin, at 4.1gm seems to fit into this latter category.

My coin and Lorber’s (both EYL and plain) appear to fit neatly into the middle of the coins listed by Svoronos and are standard enough in their weights to be a middle denomination.

I would appreciate identification of my coin and information as to whether a middle denomination has been proposed or confirmed for both the EYL and non-EYL coins.

All the best,
Col


It would seem to nicely fit with Sv 1407.  In Svoronos's catalog the weights range from 4.4 - 6.8 grams, while 1408 is about 2.5 grams.

Intermediate denomination?  Unlikely.

PtolemAE




Offline coldavo

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Hi PtolemAE,

Thank you very much for your help. I didn't think of checking specifically with Svoronos as I had discounted Sv1407 from my calculations. I have now happily recorded my coin as Sv1407.

What had me fooled (quite easily done) was that the flan seemed to fit so nicely to the die size and the main published measurement of Sv1407 was 20mm, 8 grams as compared with 16mm, 4 grams for mine. Also, Dr Lorber's hesitation in quoting Svoronos reference numbers for similar coins made me wonder.


Again, much appreciated,
All the best,
Col

Offline PtolemAE

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Hi PtolemAE,

Thank you very much for your help. I didn't think of checking specifically with Svoronos as I had discounted Sv1407 from my calculations. I have now happily recorded my coin as Sv1407.

What had me fooled (quite easily done) was that the flan seemed to fit so nicely to the die size and the main published measurement of Sv1407 was 20mm, 8 grams as compared with 16mm, 4 grams for mine. Also, Dr Lorber's hesitation in quoting Svoronos reference numbers for similar coins made me wonder.


Again, much appreciated,
All the best,
Col

Imho one attributes Ptolemaic bronze based solely on there diameters only at one's peril.  There is, afaik, no evidence-based published  metrological study on these coin types

If you read gross round-number like '8 grams' in some publication, it's likely just a ball-park guesstimate (sometimes picked from thin air for arithmetic simplicity) unless there are data to back it up.  The literature is rife with utterly erroneous 'guestimate' weights for many Ptolemaic coin types - some of which persist even after reliable quantitative information has become available. 

If, otoh, you actually look up recorded specimens (in Svoronos, other catalogs, etc.) you have something more to go on.

PtolemAE


Offline coldavo

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Hi PtolemAE,

Thanks again. I will make sure that, in future, I don't write off a coin simply because it's weight or diameter doesn't tee-up until I check with Svoronos.

On the same subject - when I googled "Svoronos 1407" I received only four hits which illustrated the coin being listed in either auctions or dealer lists. ALL of them were not "1407". None of them had the full feathered legs with ALL having the bare lower half of the legs which, I presume, makes them Svoronos 843.

Also. in Google Images, there were only four images - two of them nothing likes 1407 and the other two were again Svoronos 843.

Apparently I am not the only one to make mistakes but it is worse when important auction houses and dealers get it wrong and onsell these coins to collectors who think that they are getting a "1407".

All the best,
Col

Offline PtolemAE

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Hi PtolemAE,

Thanks again. I will make sure that, in future, I don't write off a coin simply because it's weight or diameter doesn't tee-up until I check with Svoronos.

On the same subject - when I googled "Svoronos 1407" I received only four hits which illustrated the coin being listed in either auctions or dealer lists. ALL of them were not "1407". None of them had the full feathered legs with ALL having the bare lower half of the legs which, I presume, makes them Svoronos 843.

Also. in Google Images, there were only four images - two of them nothing likes 1407 and the other two were again Svoronos 843.

Apparently I am not the only one to make mistakes but it is worse when important auction houses and dealers get it wrong and onsell these coins to collectors who think that they are getting a "1407".

All the best,
Col

My mama once told me "don't believe everything you read" :)  It's tricky and some of the types and their observable differences aren't well-explained in reference books so it's easy to innocently err, though deception can't be ruled out.  Some online repositories have many errors as do even some scholarly publications, not to mention other un-vetted ones.  Svoronos, SNG Copenhagen, and other reference books have errors, too.  You've got your work cut out for you.

PtolemAE


Offline coldavo

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Hi PtolemAE,

My apologies for dragging this out but my complaints about all of the entries, re Sv1407 looking like Sv843, on Google are possibly unwarranted.

I finally checked Svoronos' Plates and found that the eagle on his Sv1407 has bare legs which, I thought, made it an Sv843. I checked up on the Sv843 and, of course, it has the bare legs also.

Your depiction, in ptolemybronze, shows Sv1402/1407 with the eagle with fully feathered legs and I understand that fully feathered legs are a factor in the coins dated around the period for Ptolemy VI.

Since Svoronos' coin does not appear to be correct (it should be SV843??) - where does this leave my coin with fully feathered legs??

All the best,
Col

 

Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Identification of a Ptolemy AE16, 4.1gm Bronze would be appreciated.
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2018, 06:48:48 pm »
Hi PtolemAE,

My apologies for dragging this out but my complaints about all of the entries, re Sv1407 looking like Sv843, on Google are possibly unwarranted.

I finally checked Svoronos' Plates and found that the eagle on his Sv1407 has bare legs which, I thought, made it an Sv843. I checked up on the Sv843 and, of course, it has the bare legs also.

Your depiction, in ptolemybronze, shows Sv1402/1407 with the eagle with fully feathered legs and I understand that fully feathered legs are a factor in the coins dated around the period for Ptolemy VI.

Since Svoronos' coin does not appear to be correct (it should be SV843??) - where does this leave my coin with fully feathered legs??

All the best,
Col

 

Asked and answered, counselor.

Things seem clear now that may not have been a century ago, even to a scholar of Svoronos's magnitude. If the opinion offered earlier isn't satisfactory, feel free to rely on any other source you prefer.  That's the easy part.

PtolemAE

 

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