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Author Topic: Octavianus with M. Pinarius Scarpus transfer die + host  (Read 5474 times)

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Online Joe Sermarini

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Re: Octavianus with M. Pinarius Scarpus transfer die + host
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2017, 08:37:37 pm »
...So, how does one identify a fake struck from transfer dies? To me the only way seems to be to study the transfer die design, and look for elements that were not present in the ancient die but were created due to the ancient striking process (and recreated in the transfer die). But is it possible??

What we are looking for is strike flaws (off center strike, uneven strike, unstruck details, die cracks, any flaw NOT on the die) and post strike flaws (wear, scratches, marks, cuts, corrosion) that were transferred from the seed coin to the fake dies. Often they will not be spotted until someone notices the same flaw on multiple examples. Then it must be determined if the flaw is due to die damage on a genuine ancient die or because it was a flaw on the coin used to create the transfer die. It is not easy.
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Offline n.igma

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Re: Octavianus with M. Pinarius Scarpus transfer die + host
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2017, 12:16:29 am »
I am wondering if these dies are strong or fragile? Are they strong enough to strike huge numbers or are they likely to be damaged after only a small number of strikes?

Charles Larson in Numismatic Forgery pp. 66-74 describes in detail the process by which transfer dies are created by either plating or casting.
NOTE for the skim readers and those with low level comprehension skills: the casting process described by Larson is for the manufacture of transfer dies NOT a cast coin.

Transfer dies created from both methods are thin and fragile although the casting process results in a slightly more robust die.

To quote from Larson in discussion of dies created by plating from an authentic original "Dies with applied nickel faces will not stand up to prolonged, repeated use, of course. But they will be perfectly adequate for striking a number of convincing specimens on well-annealed planchets - and the softer the metal being coined, the longer the forger may expect them to last."

Larson also notes the shrinkage factor that is incurred with transfer dies created by the casting method, "While the detail and proportions of such casts are excellent, the reader will recall that the greatest problem associated with casting - differential shrinkage - is accentuated if the object being cast is thin and flat [as occurs with the manufacture of a transfer die via the casting process]." So shrinkage of the fake coin design relative to the host coin image is a potential diagnostic of the fakes. Through various steps and combinations of metal in the stages of manufacture of a transfer die by casting, the shrinkage factor can be minimized to the extant that as Larson notes "About the only way to possibly detect it as a forgery would be to superimpose a magnified photograph of its surfaces over the image of a known coin."

In considering the life of transfer dies made via the casting method Larson writes "They have certain advantages over electroplate dies dies in that the are less time consuming to make, and more substantial and will normally last longer (for the production of a larger number of strikes), plus any number of dies can be made from a single set of molds - even if the original master coin has been sold or is otherwise no longer available. The crispness of the detail  is only slightly less sharp than with electroplate dies...."

So there you have it:

1) transfer dies from electroplate transfers are good for a relative handful of examples on average, but that doesn't stop the reproduction of multiple identical transfer dies using the electroplate process. Time consuming as this is it is best applied to high value coins where the returns warrant the effort.

2) transfer dies manufactured through the casting process are more robust but still only good on average for a few tens of examples. But multiple copies of the transfer dies are easily sourced from the original transfer. Speed of die production, loss of detail and shrinkage make casting process transfer dies the most economic option for lower value coins and bronze where the smaller margin is compensated by the higher volume of fakes and the issues of loss of detail and image shrinkage are more difficult to discern.

Thus the number of fakes made is a function of the number of times the transfer dies were reproduced and put to use, rather than being determined by the life of a transfer die. Low transfer die life is readily compensated for by the manufacture of multiple copies of the transfer die set.

A corollary of Larson's expose is that transfer die life is extended by mechanical pressing in preference to hammer blow striking.  This is due to the lower strain imposed on the thin die via a steady and gradual build up of applied force as opposed to the higher deformation (strain) that arises from a sharp heavy instantaneous blow. The latter tends to fracture the the thin transfer die after a few blows.

I commend Larson's book to anyone seriously interested in the subject. Without it you are guessing blind on the many and varied ways of manufacturing fakes and the diagnostics of the different processes manifest on the end product (the fake coin).
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline Din X

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Re: Octavianus with M. Pinarius Scarpus transfer die + host
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2017, 01:28:38 pm »
Correction the decadrachm is not struck but cast, did not checked in in hand and believed seller, who was so far always correct.
Thought that the softness was the result of casting the transfer dies and that this was one earliest and  worst dies they made.
Same for the Leontinoi tetradrachm, seller pretended struck fake but after I checked it under maginficating it is cast.


I received some more dies now I have 70 1/2 new ones and the last 9 are in mail. (=150 fake dies with my old ones)


Offline Din X

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Re: Octavianus with M. Pinarius Scarpus transfer die + host
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2017, 01:34:14 pm »
I finally found 1 fake sold at auction made with my  Octavianus with M. Pinarius Scarpus transfer die.
Found several other possibly matches sold at auction but pictures are not good enough to tell it 100 % for sure :(

Octavian-L-Pinarius transfer die, host, + transfer die fake.

Picture 1 is transfer die

Picture 2 is the host used to make the transfer die, 100 % same centering, look at the dotted border and where it ends

Picture 3 is a transfer die fake made with these dies, (die break in the transfer dies was transfered)

Picture 4 reverse die usb microscope, showing the die break in the transfer die running through the wing of victory and letter a to the border.


Offline Din X

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Re: Octavianus with M. Pinarius Scarpus transfer die + host
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2017, 01:37:04 pm »
Next one is a recutted transfer die, dotted border was recutted.

Host was this unique Motya AR Didrachm which has surface problems (crystallisation) that were transfered into the transfer die.

picture 1 unique authentic host coin

picture 2 recutted transfer die

Offline Din X

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Re: Octavianus with M. Pinarius Scarpus transfer die + host
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2017, 01:48:07 pm »
I know that this is off topic but the seller of the dies told me that the good bronze fakes are overstruck on authentic coins.
I bought 3 of these fakes overstruck on authentic host coins from transfer dies.



Picture 2 Petra

Picture 3 Drusus

Picture 4 Tauromenium
 

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Octavianus with M. Pinarius Scarpus transfer die + host
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2017, 05:02:02 am »
Hi Din,

The Petra and Tauromenium coins look genuine to me. They would have fooled me.

Thank you for pointing out all of this information.

Meepzorp

Offline n.igma

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Re: Octavianus with M. Pinarius Scarpus transfer die + host
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2017, 05:04:14 pm »
They certainly pass the Malcolm Gladwell Blink test. Quite deceptive, assisted no doubt by the fake over strike on worn authentic ancient coins. However, I suspect a detailed examination under magnification of the re-struck surface patina would reveal diagnostics (e.g patina fracturing and breaks) hinting at this origin.
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline Din X

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Re: Octavianus with M. Pinarius Scarpus transfer die + host
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2017, 09:21:19 am »
It is not 100 % sure that the Petra litra is actually fake, price was with 300 Euro near retail price of an authentic example and 3 times as much as he wanted for other fakes like   Drusus (100 Euro) , Tauromenium (100 Euro), (and Sextus + Gordian, which i did not buy each 100 Euro).

And that I was only interested in fakes could make him selling me an authentic coins as fake.

The last dies arrived today.

"However, I suspect a detailed examination under magnification of the re-struck surface patina would reveal diagnostics (e.g patina fracturing and breaks) hinting at this origin."

Interestingly this is not the case.

In ancient times they did not remove the details of the undertype which was overstruck, so it is often possible to tell on which coins they were overstruck.

On these fakes no details of the undertype are visible anymore which means that these deatils must have been removed or flatted with pressure.

 


Offline Carausius

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Re: Octavianus with M. Pinarius Scarpus transfer die + host
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2017, 11:43:24 am »
Quote
On these fakes no details of the undertype are visible anymore which means that these deatils must have been removed or flatted with pressure.

Interesting.  Do these overstruck, fake bronzes show signs of repatination?  Perhaps a different surface appearance and/or color on edge than on the struck surface?  I can't imagine how a genuine bronze coin could be used in this manner without obliterating the original patina surface; but I don't bave the imagination of a forger.

EDIT: Follow-up question. Do the overstruck fakes tend to exhibit uncharacteristic flan splits

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Re: Octavianus with M. Pinarius Scarpus transfer die + host
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2017, 01:07:26 pm »
To sum up from reading the thread:
...
So, how does one identify a fake struck from transfer dies? To me the only way seems to be to study the transfer die design, and look for elements that were not present in the ancient die but were created due to the ancient striking process (and recreated in the transfer die). But is it possible??

Not quite right.  We are looking for die matched coins with a shared flaw that was apparently not on the ancient die. In other words, a strike flaws or circulation damage or wear from the seed coin. Usually, the forgers did not have a perfect specimen to work with. Spotting them is often difficult but rarely impossible. Some may be around for a long time before someone sees the same flaw on two coins.
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Re: Octavianus with M. Pinarius Scarpus transfer die + host
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2017, 07:15:42 am »
Thanks Martin.
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Vitor M

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Re: Octavianus with M. Pinarius Scarpus transfer die + host
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2018, 09:43:23 am »
Hi,

I need some help, do you think (my learned friends) this coin is one of this fakes?





Many thanks


Vitor

Offline Din X

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Re: Octavianus with M. Pinarius Scarpus transfer die + host
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2018, 11:55:54 am »
Hi,

I need some help, do you think (my learned friends) this coin is one of this fakes?





Many thanks


Vitor

Your coin is a fake from modern dies from Bulgaria, sorry.

I have bought this example from the same dies by a fake seller recently.
I have seen several die matching fakes sold by Bulgarian fake sellers and other fake sellers in the past.

https://www.ebay.de/itm/ROMAN-COINS-DENARIUS-JULIUS-CAESAR/392113878882?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

looks better (sharper) in hand than in pictures but is a pressed fake from modern dies, too lazy to make pictures especially becasue my camer is not the best

Here are more

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ROMAN-COINS-DENARIUS-CAESAR-AUG-DIVI-/392050684760?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l44720

https://www.ebay.de/itm/ROMAN-COINS-DENARIUS-CAESAR/392105837230?hash=item5b4b5442ae:g:YEEAAOSwORRbeU3K






Vitor M

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Re: Octavianus with M. Pinarius Scarpus transfer die + host
« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2018, 12:55:07 pm »
Thank you very much for your prompt reply.

Best regards

VĂ­tor

Online Joe Sermarini

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Re: Octavianus with M. Pinarius Scarpus transfer die + host
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2018, 01:18:47 pm »
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