Photo ownership

[livingwater]

Hello,

When I buy a coin I save the seller's photo for my records.  Sometimes a photo is poor quality so I take my own pictures.  I have posted some of my photos online like Asia Minor Coins and have later noticed my photos being used on someone's personal website for discussion.  I don't care at all if someone uses my photos this way.  So...when I keep a seller's photo is it unethical or illegal for me to use it to sell the coin someday?  I assume if I buy a coin, the photo comes with it.  I would hate to have to retake photos of many of my coins when/if I ever sell.  Of course if a seller objects to using their photos, I'd think it'd be hard for them to do much about it.  I have seen some seller photos reused when the coin is resold on ebay.

[Jochen]

Whenever you buy a coin you only buy the coin, not the photo of that coin. It still belongs to the seller. The correct way is to ask the seller wether you can use his photo.

BTW Joe has given his coin photos free to use. And so are the pics in my gallery too.

Jochen

[traveler]

Sometimes who owns the copyright of a photo isn't clear. To draw an analogy, if a photographer takes a picture of a person in a public place, who owns the copyright? The subject or the photographer?

However in this case I think it's fairly straightforward, if you want to sell the coin yourself you should be using your own photo, unless the original seller has given permission for you to use theirs. Especially so if the dealer's photo had some marks that will allow a viewer to identify the dealer.

[n.igma]

Plenty of discussion (though perhaps more smoke than light) here ....
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=40752.0

and here....  http://www.coinsoftime.com/Articles/Copyright_of_Coin_Photographs.html

[livingwater]

Thanks for the comments and link.  When/if I sell some of my coins I will get permission to use the seller photo or I could say "photo courtesy of."  With some of my coin photos, the seller took a good picture but in the background are shadows from lighting, the top of a table, fingers, sometimes an outdoor scene where you can see the side of a house or trees.  I edit out the background and make it a solid color, usually white.  Does this mean I co-own the photo?  How would a seller prove it was his photo I edited?  I can easily change the contrast, tilt the angle of the coin, etc. to make it look different.  Due to cost, it is highly unlikely a seller would file a legal complaint if I reuse their photo.  At most they may email and ask that I not use the photo.  When a coin is sold at fixed price or you pay a percentage auction fee, the seller/auction firm has factored in the cost/time for taking the photo.  So in a real scense the buyer pays for the photo.

In addition to collecting ancient coins, I am also a songwriter.  Copyright of a song is important.  In my opinion a song is much more unique than a coin photo.  If a small time artist stole my song, recorded it, and sold a few hundred copies, due to cost I would not persue it in court.  But if it was a major artist and they were making a lot of money from my song, I would definately sue.

Regards,
livingwater (Mark)

[areich]

I think you shouldn't overthink this. The dealer took the photo for a purpose, to sell the product - the coin. You didn't buy the rights to the photo but I wouldn't hesitate to use it. If you were a dealer, you might expect someone to comment on it but a dealer that doesn't take their own, consistent pictures looks unprofessional anyway. You might write 'ex So-and-so (dealer's photo)'. Doing so (also if you're publishing the picture on your personal website is enough in my personal opinion. If a dealer wanted me to stop using their pictures (if they somehow noticed), I'd respect their wishes but think twice about buying from them the next time. Again, this is all under the assumption that you're a collector selling coins occasionally (as most collectors do), not a professional or semiprofessional seller. But even then, I would't care if I was a dealer, as long as it was clear who's selling the coin (i.e. my logo isn't still on the picture).

It's very different if you're a photographer where the photo is your product.

[SC]

I agree with Andreas.  The old dealer's photo is part of the provenance.  I think if you attribute the photo you are fine in most cases.

Shawn

[Sam]

I think you shouldn't overthink this. The dealer took the photo for a purpose, to sell the product - the coin. You didn't buy the rights to the photo but I wouldn't hesitate to use it. If you were a dealer, you might expect someone to comment on it but a dealer that doesn't take their own, consistent pictures looks unprofessional anyway. You might write 'ex So-and-so (dealer's photo)'. Doing so (also if you're publishing the picture on your personal website is enough in my personal opinion. If a dealer wanted me to stop using their pictures (if they somehow noticed), I'd respect their wishes but think twice about buying from them the next time. Again, this is all under the assumption that you're a collector selling coins occasionally (as most collectors do), not a professional or semiprofessional seller. But even then, I would't care if I was a dealer, as long as it was clear who's selling the coin (i.e. my logo isn't still on the picture).

It's very different if you're a photographer where the photo is your product.

  + 1

[Andrew McCabe]

I think you shouldn't overthink this. The dealer took the photo for a purpose, to sell the product - the coin. You didn't buy the rights to the photo but I wouldn't hesitate to use it. If you were a dealer, you might expect someone to comment on it but a dealer that doesn't take their own, consistent pictures looks unprofessional anyway. You might write 'ex So-and-so (dealer's photo)'. Doing so (also if you're publishing the picture on your personal website is enough in my personal opinion. If a dealer wanted me to stop using their pictures (if they somehow noticed), I'd respect their wishes but think twice about buying from them the next time. Again, this is all under the assumption that you're a collector selling coins occasionally (as most collectors do), not a professional or semiprofessional seller. But even then, I would't care if I was a dealer, as long as it was clear who's selling the coin (i.e. my logo isn't still on the picture).

It's very different if you're a photographer where the photo is your product.

  + 1

I also agree with Andreas' comments, but only so far as using the photo on your own website, marked 'dealer X photo'. If you are reselling a coin, I'd always take your own photo for the sales listing as to do otherwise is using the dealer's photo for commercial rather than informational reasons. And it's easy. Almost everyone nowadays owns a camera or a phone camera good enough for a reasonable coin photo so it's hardly difficult. I do however think it fair that one includes a screenshot of the original sale listing you bought the coin from to prove provenance. But that's proving provenance rather than reusing a photo and it doesn't need to be in high definition.