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Author Topic: Hadrian on horse galloping - is it recorded?  (Read 2485 times)

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Offline timka

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Hadrian on horse galloping - is it recorded?
« on: April 21, 2016, 02:42:59 pm »
Hi!

I would like to check with you this denarius with Hadrian on horse galloping. I did not find it in RIC, BM and acsearch. It is not about a rarer left-facing Hadrian on obverse, even right-facing Hadrian is not listed in RIC, etc. There are aurieii and bronzes recorded with this reverse, but this exact denarius seems to be omitted. Is it in Strack or elsewhere?

ob. HADRIANUS AVGVSTUS.bare draped bust left
Rev. COS III Hadrian on horse galloping right with spear in rest

2,95 g - 18mm - 180'

Thank you for your time in advance.

Cheers,

Z.

Offline okidoki

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Re: Hadrian on horse galloping - is it recorded?
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2016, 03:01:58 pm »
Hello Timka,

its not in Strack as a Denarius Strack 148 is Au as is Cohen 414
All the Best,
Eric
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Offline okidoki

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Re: Hadrian on horse galloping - is it recorded?
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2016, 03:16:24 pm »
nice find you have here, on Aureus also no "Bare head, draped bust left" in RIC
All the Best,
Eric
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Offline timka

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Re: Hadrian on horse galloping - is it recorded?
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2016, 03:49:33 am »
Eric, thank you for checking it in Strack for me!...very much appreciated!

So, if Curtis does not have any notes about this variant - so it seems to be rare. This reverse type with galloping Hadrian was very common on aurei, and the mint seemed to carry on with denarii for a little while when ran out of gold :D

Thank you,

Z.

Offline okidoki

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Re: Hadrian on horse galloping - is it recorded?
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2016, 07:17:49 am »
Timka,

do you have this coin in hand?
it looks a bit off, obverse bubbles?
reverse the O from COS III

All the Best,
Eric
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Offline timka

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Re: Hadrian on horse galloping - is it recorded?
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2016, 08:24:46 am »
Hi Eric, yes I have it in hands - I always post my coins - those photos of poor quality are mine)...

It is very solid silver denarius - may it was a bit burned, though I cannot exclude it was burned with its owner, given the hole and the remains of a little broken silver ring that I had to remove from this hole myself.

It is a bit too shiny now, as I tried to clean it myself,  with a bit of baking soda and water.


Z.
 

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Hadrian on horse galloping - is it recorded?
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2016, 11:57:37 am »
The coin looks convincing, but I have a suspicion that it is a modern concoction derived from an authentic aureus.

First, these are aureus dies. For the obverse die, see BMC 535, pl. 57.16, and about five examples in CoinArchives Pro, one of which I reproduce below. Your reverse die is different from those of the aurei named, but I expect that a wider search would find it too used on an authentic aureus.

Now at the beginning of Hadrian's reign dies might be shared between aurei and denarii, as for example BMC pl. 46.1-2, an aureus and denarius from the same reverse die. Later in the reign, however, aureus dies became broader and finer than denarius dies, with the result there was no more die sharing between the two metals. Your coin, if genuine, would break this rule.

Second, aurei and denarii often shared the same reverse types, but this was not the case in the two issues HADRIANVS AVGVSTVS P P / COS III and HADRIANVS AVGVSTVS  / COS III P P towards the middle of Hadrian's reign. In these issues each of the two precious metals had its own reverse types; no types were shared between the metals. Again your coin, if genuine, would break this rule.

If your coin was definitely recently dug up, or if it seems indisputably authentic in hand, or if other examples turn up in hoards or excavations, then we will have to admit that it is authentic, the mint apparently having made an exception in this case by striking a small issue of denarii from aureus dies, so of course also with aureus types. Until then, however, it seems to me more likely that your coin is a modern concoction, deriving from an authentic aureus.

No denarii of this type, incidentally, are known to Richard Abdy, who is currently working on the new edition of RIC for Hadrian. Richard recently sent me a draft of his new RIC listings for Hadrian from 128 on, and (unless I am overlooking it) it contains no COS III P P Horseman denarius.
Curtis Clay

Offline timka

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Re: Hadrian on horse galloping - is it recorded?
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2016, 03:28:39 pm »
Curtis, thank you so much for taking your time and looking at this thread!

As you might have noticed I never posted concoctions over here - I dont know what this means and how it looks. This coin was dug up about two weeks ago at Sarmatian plains- below is the photo as it was found,  being only cleaned with water at the sight.  Later I  removed myself that silver ring and cleaned it further with some soda and water. I guess that a Sarmatian with a developed sense of style just decided to make a pendant from this gorgeous denarius that was very different from other plain denarii. I have to admit that this guy had a great taste - he picked really nice one that I really admire myself and therefore thankful to my tasteful and advanced predecessor.  

Unfortunately I cannot say for sure if PP is there or not - this part is worn out.

Is there any contact email of Richard? I have a couple of more unrecorded denarii of Hadrian that I posted here earlier... is he interested, what do you think?

Cheers,

Z



 

Offline okidoki

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Re: Hadrian on horse galloping - is it recorded?
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2016, 03:44:10 pm »
All the Best,
Eric
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Offline timka

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Re: Hadrian on horse galloping - is it recorded?
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2016, 04:31:45 pm »
Eric, what is it in black-and-white picture? it is aureus, right?

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Hadrian on horse galloping - is it recorded?
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2016, 04:56:52 pm »
Yes, an aureus, as indicated by the letters AV after the lot number. This type too is unpublished in silver.
Curtis Clay

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Hadrian on horse galloping - is it recorded?
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2016, 12:49:26 pm »
Given those find circumstances, either the coin is indeed ancient, or we are being deceived by a very accomplished and clever forger!

Still the use of aureus dies and types to strike denarii is so odd and virtually unparalleled that some special use or occasion seems probable. It's hard to imagine that the mint produced such denarii merely to pay normal government expenses and for ordinary commercial circulation.
Curtis Clay

Offline timka

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Re: Hadrian on horse galloping - is it recorded?
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2016, 03:04:43 am »
Hi Curtis, I have no doubts it is ancient. When I tried to remove this silver ring, it was so cristalized that it broke in hands very easy on both side. I only needed a tool to remove the remainder of the ring that was left inside the hole - this part was stuck inside very firm along with soil and oxides - so it took some effort to remove it from the hole.  

Come over to Kiev and you will attest this coin yourself!:) - it is very nice over here- spring, everything is in bloom.

Cheers,


Z.

Offline okidoki

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Re: Hadrian on horse galloping - is it recorded?
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2019, 09:20:24 am »
My coin has no traces of PP and looks like a normal Denarius, to me

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=120602.msg728960#msg728960
All the Best,
Eric
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Offline timka

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Re: Hadrian on horse galloping - is it recorded?
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2019, 02:44:32 pm »
Hi Eric, good news that it looks fine. So please let know Richard Abdy about this new specimen. He should have known of my coin already. It will be interesting to know his opinion. Cheers!

Offline okidoki

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Re: Hadrian on horse galloping - is it recorded?
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2019, 05:38:35 am »
He agree's 100% with Curtis

my reply

I am almost certain my coin is ancient, so is my fellow collector of his coin, everything seems to fit its dimensions, looks, metal patina edge ect.

I guess to be continued …. 😊
All the Best,
Eric
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