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Author Topic: Is that Sear 1929?  (Read 3157 times)

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Is that Sear 1929?
« on: March 26, 2016, 09:48:28 am »
Dear Board;
I post this Byzantine coin?AE 20mm-2,35g-6h which looks Sear 1929?over struck?
Thanks in advance for all help

Offline Simon

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Re: Is that Sear 1929?
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2016, 02:11:49 pm »
I would agree that it is SBCV-1929, however, what makes that one so unusual is two different dye sizes were used. I have only seen that once before on a Manuel coin.

DOC lists 9 examples with weights running from 1.82gm to 5.10gm and size from 18mm to 22mm ,

I have 5 very different examples listed in my collection. Click my signature link to see them.

Simon
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

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Re: Is that Sear 1929?
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2016, 03:40:52 am »
Great Thanks Simon
What do you think about this coin that i have posted for ID:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=105373.0
Looking in my Collection ,i found this unusual coin which was discussed here before:
BYZANTINE EMPIRE-AlexiusI,AE Half Tetarteron?,Very thin & very light-18mm-W:1,25g-5h-Thessalonica

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Re: Is that Sear 1929?
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2016, 04:35:49 am »
Looking closely into my Collection;i have found another unusual coin:
BYZANTINE EMPIRE-AlexiusI,AE Half Tetarteron?,Very thin & very light-20mm-W:2g-2h-Thessalonica,

Offline Simon

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Re: Is that Sear 1929?
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2016, 07:34:53 am »
Even though it is not fully proven I am a believer that the coin we call Tetarteron was not a fixed denomination. The coin right now has been proven to be at least three different values.

1. Metropolitan tetartera were minted in Constantinople , they contained a small amount of silver. They also had a small amount of silver wash that helped visually to distinguish the metropolitan tetartera and the regional ones.

2. Regional tetartera were minted in mints outside Constantinople, they never contain silver.

3. Half tetartera , Hendy found coins in a lower weight than the regional tetartera and grouped them into a half denomination.

I believe the Regional tetartera were a denomination based on weight of the coin, not face value at all. My reasoning is very simple , after collecting these coins for almost 20 years, I have found examples of the same coin running from 1gm to 5gm , the dies in each case were the same size, the dies also were very consistent in their details of the imagery and style making them official or at least approved ,  however the lack of consistency in the weight leads me to believe they could have only been fairly traded by their weight.

Imagine getting two coins in your change from a purchase and one weighed 5gm and the other weighed 1gm , you would not feel they were equal in value, nor would you accept the 1gm coin was the same value as the 5gm coin.

My theory can be argued by inflation and by only regional usage, since we are at the end of the chain of collecting and we cannot prove where a coin was found. Hoard information is a bit limited, the weights were not recorded only the average weight. Since the Tetarteron was the most circulated coin because it was issued in the millions and it was a very low denomination it was rarely hoarded and written information about the value of the coin is extremely limited. Purse coins ( Uncirculated) are extremely rare. Most coins show usage because they were left in circulation for decades.

The last problem is imitation coins, made by neighboring countries use the basic image of the coin, tend to be of a lower weight , Your coin is a perfect example , it is an imitation of the official issue, the imagery is correct but the style is much cruder.

Simon
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Simon

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Re: Is that Sear 1929?
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2016, 07:47:36 am »

 ALEXIUS AE TETARTERON SBCV-1929 DOC 38 CLBC 2.4.5   

 OBV Bust of Christ, bearded and nimbate, wearing tunic and kolobion; holds gospels open in l. hand. Pellet in each limb of nimbus cross.
 REV. Bust facing wearing stemma, divitision, and chlamys; holds in r. hand scepter cruciger, and in l. Globus cruciger.

 Size 19mm

 Weight 2.4

 Superior example with details both on Christ's face and Alexius's. This is my best example Very Fine

 DOC lists 9 examples with weight s running from 1.82gm to 5.10gm and size from 18mm to 22mm 
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Vladislav D

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Re: Is that Sear 1929?
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2016, 10:03:08 pm »
20mm

Offline Vladislav D

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Re: Is that Sear 1929?
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2016, 10:12:24 pm »
21 mm 2.34 g

Offline Vladislav D

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Re: Is that Sear 1929?
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2016, 10:17:50 pm »
Size unknown

Offline Simon

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Re: Is that Sear 1929?
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2016, 10:21:37 pm »
I am sure you would agree Vlad those are also imitation coins, the first one you posted has a really whimsical portrait of Alexius.
It is strange though that I have seen many imitations of Alexius and Manuel but none of John II coins. He ruled for 25 years in between their reigns but no imitations seem to appear..
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Vladislav D

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Re: Is that Sear 1929?
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2016, 11:44:20 pm »
We discuss this coins long time ago  https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=94083.0  . I'm agree with you , that this "cartoonish" style coin is  imitation . But I still have little doubt , that  the coins from the topic  https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=77986.0   is from the same series ,   even they have very similar  obverse IC - X , instead of IC-XC . Seems to me that the style is also crude , but is slight different  . I don't know where the coins ( alexius ???) from this topic was found . But other ones ( with cross on reverse )  come from the same area - Lebanon , Syria  and very likely came from the  local finds .
Regards ,
Vlad .

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Re: Is that Sear 1929?
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2016, 02:29:29 am »
Great Thanhs for all comments +++

Offline joma-tk

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Re: Is that Sear 1929?
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2016, 03:27:28 am »
Dear Simon

Have you ever seen a tetarteron like this?

tk

Offline Vladislav D

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Re: Is that Sear 1929?
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2016, 06:28:13 am »

Offline Vladislav D

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Re: Is that Sear 1929?
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2016, 07:31:57 am »
I understand that  this tetarteron / weight is another topic , but I just noticed that all three have identical line on the reverse .
Regards ,
Vlad .

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Re: Is that Sear 1929?
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2016, 07:35:01 am »
Dear Simon

Have you ever seen a tetarteron like this?

tk

Hi TK,

Vlad is on the money, it is a weight. I purchased The introduction to Byzantine weights by Bendall because of that item. I saw it for auction listing it as a tetartera weight, I did not bid, I needed more info so I bought the book instead.

I know we have discussed it before Vlad but I see no harm in a bit of redundancy , it helps the newer collectors who might be lurking.

Best to you both.

Simon
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Simon

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Re: Is that Sear 1929?
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2016, 07:38:26 am »
I understand that  this tetarteron / weight is another topic , but I just noticed that all three have identical line on the reverse .
Regards ,
Vlad .

I had not noticed that before, good catch.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Vladislav D

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Re: Is that Sear 1929?
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2016, 06:32:30 pm »
Size unknown

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Is that Sear 1929?
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2016, 08:27:01 am »
I believe the Regional tetartera were a denomination based on weight of the coin, not face value at all. My reasoning is very simple , after collecting these coins for almost 20 years, I have found examples of the same coin running from 1gm to 5gm , the dies in each case were the same size, the dies also were very consistent in their details of the imagery and style making them official or at least approved ,  however the lack of consistency in the weight leads me to believe they could have only been fairly traded by their weight.

I find this extremely unlikely. More likely they vary in weight due to a change over time, or it may have been just so insignificant that nobody cared, or most likely a combination of the two.

If bread was worth 2 grams of coin, and I had a 3 gram, would the seller have to weigh his coins until he found a 1 gram coin for change? What if my coin weighed 3.5 grams? What if he only had 2 gram coins and larger? This would be just too difficult to be routine.

Even today, coins change over time and yet the older coins frequently stay in circulation for a considerable period. Coins of the same denomination varying in weight from 1 gm to 5gm could circulate side-by-side without any concern as long as the face value exceeded the value of 5gm of metal. If the value dropped below 5gm then the highest weight coins would leave circulation over time but the rest would still circulate, still be called the same name, and still be officially the same value.

If you wanted to trade in a bag tetartera for a gold coin they might have weighed the bag, but I cannot imagine they would weigh a bronze coin to buy a loaf of bread.


 
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Re: Is that Sear 1929?
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2016, 05:42:24 pm »
Joe I understand what you are saying, but the picture is not complete.

Hendy in 1969 said in Coinage and Money in the Byzantine Empire 1081-1261 “There is reason to believe their existed fractions of the copper Tetarteron as part of the new system - the half being quite recognizable.”

All the work he did back then was on average coin weight on hoard and stray find coins. We have a lot more info now and a lot more coins and the weights vary considerable but no indication on how one coin could be worth more than another.

Lets look at it the other way, this is with two coins in my collection ( Low and High) both believed to be minted in Cyprus, SBCV-1933

Let’s say a Byzantine Regional Pound was 284g

That pound would produce 218 coins for a coin with 1.3gm weight

That pound would produce 50 coins with a 5.6gm weight

I think the person issuing the coins and paying people with them and considering them equal in value would have the biggest problem with it.

Simon

 
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

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Re: Is that Sear 1929?
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2016, 10:32:19 am »
Your last post seems to repeat what you said before.  I can only reaffirm what I wrote before. 

The latest US pennies feel like copper coated plastic (maybe they are). A penny is a penny. Nobody cares.

If the Byzantines did have a problem with the difference, the coins would not have circulated and the government would have been forced to issue something different.
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Re: Is that Sear 1929?
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2016, 11:21:10 pm »
In regards to Sear -1929 Here is a great piece of information I picked up, even though the author is not referring to S-1929 but SBCV-1920

"Although archaeological data from Asia Minor is Scarce, the great numbers of early Komnenian tetartera found in northern Syria is characteristic.?, as coin types better represented in circulation become the object of imitation, it is certainly not a coincidence that the Se juk sultan Rukn al-d n Mas. id (rrr7_l156) adopted for his copper fals the imperial portrait of Alexius of the type used on Constantinopolitan tetartera"

This could be an answer for these imitations we are seeing of S-1929, the Fals being an example but the use of Alexius portrait could have been used by other cultures. We also know the Tetarteron was still in circulation and reproduced until the mid 13th century, ironically it is Alexius and Manuel coins that are imitated and not the latter emperors.

In regards to the value of tetartera, two interesting documents described the purchasing power of the Tetarteron. I had never heard about these before but it gives us a bit more information.
 
Dating from Manuel I(1143-1180) A letter from Princess Irene to her tutor mentions  (Metropolitan) Tetarteron as being able to purchase 10 herring in the city of Constantinople.

The other reference is from 1185 has a regional Tetarteron in Thessalonica being able to purchase a small loaf of bread.

This again indicates the billion tetartera was tariffed at a higher rate of exchange but more importantly it gives us an idea of the value of this minor coinage.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Vladislav D

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Re: Is that Sear 1929?
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2017, 02:09:32 pm »
My new one :)
20 mm. , 1.64 gr. 

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Re: Is that Sear 1929?
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2017, 06:51:58 pm »
Interesting example, I like the blundered Christ portrait but as usual the X is easily distinguishable.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

 

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