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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Roman Coins (Moderator: Severus_Alexander)  |  Topic: Hadrian Sestertius Roma 122-25 AD Spes standing thunderbolt? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Hadrian Sestertius Roma 122-25 AD Spes standing thunderbolt?  (Read 1082 times)
okidoki
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« on: March 13, 2016, 01:12:52 pm »

Reference.
Strack ; RIC 612b; Banti 595

Obv. IMP CAESAR TRAIAN HADRIANVS AVG
Laureate, draped, and cuirassed bust right.

Rev. P M TR P COS III S C
Spes advancing left, holding flower and lifting dress.

It look like he has a thunderbolt sign on his cuirass leather strap

 

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-127756
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Eric
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okidoki
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« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2016, 02:36:18 am »

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-116409
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quadrans
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« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2016, 02:49:14 am »

Huhh,
Nice coins Eric.. Thumbs Up

Q.
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otlichnik
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« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2016, 06:58:47 am »

If you google "Hadrian statue from Troia IX" you will find images of a statue which has an almost identical design on the cuirass shoulder strap.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Hadrian_Statue_from_Troia_IX_%28BC_85_AD_450%29%2C_found_in_the_Odeon%2C_Troy_%28Ilium%29%2C_Canakkale_Museum_Turkey_%287446259522%29.jpg

Unfortunately I can't find a view that shows the entire strap, and on the views that you can find it is unclear exactly what is portrayed.

It does not look like a thunder-bolt as the three "arms" appears to be twisted - like rope - but maybe that was a style of thunderbolt at the time.

Shawn
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SC
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« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2016, 07:19:30 am »

Thank you Q and Shawn,

@Shawn what stunning statue of Hadrian thank you so much, i had not looked at his statues.

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timka
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« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2016, 12:48:25 pm »

Quote from: okidoki on March 13, 2016, 01:12:52 pm

Eric, would be nice to see more  references with thunderbolt in order to be 100% sure... however, I am with you about thunderbolt on the strap. It looks very similar to a simplified  thunderbolt that was featured on Hadrian (and Pius too) denarii.

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« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2016, 12:52:40 pm »

thx Timka,

i am looking, nice coin you have here is it yours ?
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timka
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« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2016, 02:00:53 pm »

unfortunately, not mine - Ive picked it from acsearch to show the style of thunderbolt on roman hadrian coin
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curtislclay
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« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2016, 05:27:57 pm »

A thunderbolt on the cuirass shoulder strap seems to be a regular motif on sestertii of Hadrian of about this time, once one begins to look for it!

Below the two best Spes examples in CoinArchives Pro; plus a VIRT AVG coin and a PIETAS AVGVSTI sestertius with a longer obv. legend. For the last two types see also BMC pl. 80.4 and 79.1.

Yet the thunderbolt motif is easy to overlook, since it is partly or wholly worn away on many specimens, and is small and unobtrusive even when preserved. I had never noticed it before myself, and find no mention of it in BMC or Strack, or in the catalogue descriptions of the many sestertii in CoinArchives that show complete or partial thunderbolts on the shoulder strap.
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Curtis Clay
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« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2016, 05:47:48 pm »

This is not a new observation, however. According to Bastien, Buste monétaire I, p. 275, a thunderbolt on the shoulder strap occurs with some frequency in other media: he mentions and illustrates in his plates a statue of Drusus, a bust of Septimius Severus in the Vatican, a cameo of Tiberius in Vienna, and a cameo of Caligula in New York. The motif is rarer on coins, Bastien continues: he points to a bronze medallion of Antoninus Pius (Gnecchi pl. 47.1), a bronze medallion of Commodus (Gn. pl. 82.3), and a gold multiple of Constantine II (his pl. 185.4).

It would be interesting to know who first recognized this motif on coins, and to have a full list of its numismatic occurrences. I suspect it might have been an art historian or armor/clothing specialist who, having seen the thunderbolt on sculptures and gems, decided to do a search on coins, and was successful!
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Curtis Clay
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« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2016, 10:27:14 pm »

If you google "Hadrian statue from Troia IX" you will find images of a statue which has an almost identical design on the cuirass shoulder strap.
...

Unfortunately I can't find a view that shows the entire strap, and on the views that you can find it is unclear exactly what is portrayed.

It does not look like a thunder-bolt as the three "arms" appears to be twisted - like rope - but maybe that was a style of thunderbolt at the time.

Shawn


Good find!  I am convinced that those are three grain ears, a la:

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manpace
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« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2016, 10:39:30 pm »

This is not a new observation, however. According to Bastien, Buste monétaire I, p. 275, a thunderbolt on the shoulder strap occurs with some frequency in other media: he mentions and illustrates in his plates a statue of Drusus, a bust of Septimius Severus in the Vatican, a cameo of Tiberius in Vienna, and a cameo of Caligula in New York. The motif is rarer on coins, Bastien continues: he points to a bronze medallion of Antoninus Pius (Gnecchi pl. 47.1), a bronze medallion of Commodus (Gn. pl 82.3), and a gold multiple of Constantine II (his pl. 185.4).

It would be interesting to know who first recognized this motif on coins, and to have a full list of its numismatic occurrences. I suspect it might have been an art historian or armor/clothing specialist who, having seen the thunderbolt on sculptures and gems, decided to do a search on coins, and was successful!

Fascinating!

There's a "floral ornament" on a Maximian aureus:  http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=207749

It seems ornamentation was popular in such clothing.  http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1592995
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okidoki
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« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2016, 07:36:30 am »

Curtis,

Thank you very much, this bust is also a bit scare that combined with your comments makes it not so often seen.

note.
CNG auction 370
From the J. Eric Engstrom Collection. Ex Lepczyk 61 (13 March 1985), lot 365; Vatican Museum duplicate from St. John’s College Collection, no. 429.


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Eric
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otlichnik
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« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2016, 07:39:46 am »

Interestingly the thunderbolt on the denarius Timka posted has the same twists on its central part as found on the shoulders of the Troia IX statue.  The Troia IX statue carries the twist design onto the smaller arms of the thunderbolt but they are, of necessity, thicker than those on the coins so that is natural.

Shawn


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okidoki
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« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2016, 08:01:42 am »

Interestingly the thunderbolt on the denarius Timka posted has the same twists on its central part as found on the shoulders of the Troia IX statue.  The Troia IX statue carries the twist design onto the smaller arms of the thunderbolt but they are, of necessity, thicker than those on the coins so that is natural.

Shawn



Shawn,

to me the statue has cornears or leaves on him. branchleft
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Eric
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curtislclay
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« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2018, 03:45:24 pm »

I note that the thunderbolt on Hadrian's shoulder strap reappeared on some of his sestertii of c. 131 AD, with types FELICITATI AVG COS III P P Galley, CLEMENTIA AVG COS III P P, and probably several other types of the same issue too. See image below from CoinArchives Pro (Freeman & Sear). Also a little less clearly on BMC pl. 84.10 and pl. 85.7.
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Curtis Clay
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« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2018, 04:03:10 pm »

Thank you now we have to look out for a  HADRIANVS AVGVSTVS P P 134-38 AD
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Eric
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