Philip V & Perseus Tetrobol - fake dies

[Lacedaemon]

I’m a little unsure of the best way to approach this subject. Discussing fake dies is very different to casts. Also I’m a little out of the loop when it comes to small Greek coins.

It’s clear to me, and I get the impression that it became clear to others early on this year, that there are a number of Philip V and Perseus tetrobols on the market that originate from modern dies.

Since I’m out of the loop I thought I’d post the nine obverse dies that I believe are from these modern dies and just ask those who specialise in Greek coins, who know better than I do, if these coins/dies have already been exposed anywhere.

[Molinari]

I've seen these listed over the past year on eBay and assumed they were all fake.  Here are some authentic ones for comparison.  How do the weights match up?  The ones I post are between 2.26-2.49g

[Lacedaemon]

The weights of the coins seem to be in generally the right area for coins of this type, about 2.4g.

Sometime around January I gathered as many images of this type of coin as I could find to see if there were die links between them. I found links between 9 obverse dies and 10 reverse dies.

I’ll upload the die comparison image I made. I hope it makes sense to others. It’s arranged so coins with the same obverse die run horizontally and reverse dies run vertically. The coins on red backgrounds were sold by notorious fake sellers, the ones not on red backgrounds are mostly from dealers.

[Joe Sermarini]

I hope it makes sense to others. It’s arranged so coins with the same obverse die run horizontally and reverse dies run vertically. The coins on red backgrounds were sold by notorious fake sellers, the ones not on red backgrounds are mostly from dealers.

Sense? It is BRILLIANT!  Thanks.

[bpmurphy]

I've had a few of these in the last year that I identified as fake from the metal and surfaces but never sat down and developed all the die links you did. Nice job and thanks for spending the time putting all this together.

Barry Murphy

[bpmurphy]

Here is another to add to your composite, a die combination not currently listed. It's obverse die row 3 and reverse die column 5.

Barry Murphy

[Lacedaemon]

I've had a few of these in the last year that I identified as fake from the metal and surfaces but never sat down and developed all the die links you did.

Thanks. I’m glad to hear that in well experienced hands the metal of these coins is detectably wrong.

I’ve held off talking about these coins as a number of dealers have been selling them, and I expected to encounter a certain amount of reluctance and hostility when discussing them in public.

I think it’s important to openly expose fake die forgeries. The longer they are on the market and collectors are unaware of them the more money they make for the forger and the more incentive the forger has to continue in his practice. Also, I feel it damages the reputation of the hobby if fake dies can go for years before they are exposed.

Very few of these coins have turned up in published auctions. The earliest example I found was sold in April 2014.

From what I’ve read about fake dies of small Greek’s it generally takes a while before the community agrees on them as forgeries. I hope these dies can be exposed and dismissed as soon as possible.

[Joe Sermarini]

I have one suggestion for improving the display.  Take the clearest example of each reverse and make header row at the top, and the clearest example of each obverse and make a header column on the left.

[Joe Sermarini]

All the coins with red backgrounds seem to have artificial aging and may not even be silver.  The surfaces look fake.  Some of the examples sold by legitimate dealers look much better. 

So, I wonder if they are all certainly fake.  Could the the fakes have been cast or struck with dies were derived from genuine coins? Is it possible there are die matches between genuine and fake examples?  Could some of the coin in the array be genuine?

I suspect they are all fake but I don't want to condemn genuine coins.

[Lacedaemon]

I don’t believe these coins are the result of extracted dies. I think it probably helps me that I have better images of these coins than I have posted here. I had to shrink the images in order to make the comparison image, and then shrink them again in order to post the coins to forum, as anything larger than 2 GB and I get timed out. I have sent a larger image of the coins to the forum presidents e-mail, I don’t know if he can post it here.

In general the coins sold by the fake sellers are crisper, they don’t have the surface damage that coins sold by more reputable dealers have. If they were extracted, they would need to have been skilfully re-engraved. No Philip V tetrobols contain a full die strike with no surface damage.

Also - as an additional note - which I only mention now because I feel I probably should say it, in February a few of the coins from these dies which were listed on Vcoins were quietly removed from sale - not sold. This is why I said on my original post that it seemed to have become clear to others that these were forgeries. Of course they could have been withdrawn as a precaution, and I don’t think the withdrawal should have any baring on the conversation were having. But to the best of my knowledge 2 of the coins pictured in the comparison image, the dealer did not sell the coins.

[Joe Sermarini]

Full size image:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/attachments/PerseusorPhilipV.jpg

[Akropolis]

Splendid, Lacedaemon and Joe!
A valuable reference tool!
Thanks!!!
PeteB

[bpmurphy]

I think these are all modern dies.

Barry Murphy

[Lacedaemon]

A small note on the style of the coins:

On the obverses of these coins, around the edge, are a series of semi-circles. Each is two semi-circles containing a dot. In general their seems to be a stylistic difference between the coins that are of the 9 obverses in this series, and other coins which have come on the market in the past 10 years.

I’m posting a comparison image to illustrate this. Each is the top right semi-circle. Coins not related seem generally to have fuller more rounded semi-circles.

[imperialcoins]

The coins with red backgrounds all appear to be bad casts. The question is whether they were cast from real coins and that is why you are finding die links?

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All the coins with red backgrounds seem to have artificial aging and may not even be silver.  The surfaces look fake.  Some of the examples sold by legitimate dealers look much better. 

So, I wonder if they are all certainly fake.  Could the the fakes have been cast or struck with dies were derived from genuine coins? Is it possible there are die matches between genuine and fake examples?  Could some of the coin in the array be genuine?

I suspect they are all fake but I don't want to condemn genuine coins.

[Lacedaemon]

The coins with red backgrounds all appear to be bad casts. The question is whether they were cast from real coins and that is why you are finding die links?

http://3

All the coins with red backgrounds seem to have artificial aging and may not even be silver.  The surfaces look fake.  Some of the examples sold by legitimate dealers look much better.  

So, I wonder if they are all certainly fake.  Could the the fakes have been cast or struck with dies were derived from genuine coins? Is it possible there are die matches between genuine and fake examples?  Could some of the coin in the array be genuine?

I suspect they are all fake but I don't want to condemn genuine coins.

I don’t understand why you think the coins with red backgrounds all appear to be bad casts. They generally have better definition than the other coins.

[REMOVED BY ADMIN]

I’m sorry if that feels like I’m getting a little personal. You’re characterization of them as - bad casts - without any basis or illustrated explanation really irks me.

[Joe Sermarini]

Barry stated above that he believes they are all from modern dies. If that isn't enough, the style comparison above should be. I am convinced that they are all from modern dies.

Some may be casts of the struck fakes. Strange as it seems, many cast fakes are derived from struck fakes.  Apparently some fake cast makers cannot afford genuine coins to make their molds, don't know the difference, or (most likely) just don't care.

[imperialcoins]

Now that I am on my PC and not my smartphone I can look at the blown up images. I still say that most of the coins with a red background have a cast look. Why? They have a waxy appearance to them or they have an artificial aging treatment that is intended to look like dirt but is too "waxy". Also, many of the coins with a red background have

The coins with red backgrounds all appear to be bad casts. The question is whether they were cast from real coins and that is why you are finding die links?

http://3

All the coins with red backgrounds seem to have artificial aging and may not even be silver.  The surfaces look fake.  Some of the examples sold by legitimate dealers look much better.  

So, I wonder if they are all certainly fake.  Could the the fakes have been cast or struck with dies were derived from genuine coins? Is it possible there are die matches between genuine and fake examples?  Could some of the coin in the array be genuine?

I suspect they are all fake but I don't want to condemn genuine coins.

I don’t understand why you think the coins with red backgrounds all appear to be bad casts. They generally have better definition than the other coins.

[REMOVED BY ADMIN]

I’m sorry if that feels like I’m getting a little personal. You’re characterization of them as - bad casts - without any basis or illustrated explanation really irks me.