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Author Topic: Arados fourree tetradrachm  (Read 2045 times)

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Offline dougsmit

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Arados fourree tetradrachm
« on: February 15, 2015, 01:03:49 pm »
Every so often I ask this question in the hope that someday someone will reply.  Forgive me if you have read it before.  Some questions take longer to answer than others.  This one is at 25 years. 

In 1989, I bought the coin below at auction where it was correctly described as a fourree.  The reverse die is made distinctive by a long horizontal die crack across Zeus' ribs.  Not long after that, I saw a die duplicate of the coin listed for sale which had the exergue on flan and provided the date OE that is missing from my coin.  My coin weighs 13.8g which is much too light for a solid coin.  The duplicate being offered weighed a bit less.  I asked the auction house about it in the hope that I had found a solid and fourree from the same dies but they determined that their coin was also a fourree and withdrew the lot. It had the most tiny bit of core exposure which was less than obvious in the sale photo.  I kick myself for not saving that image.

Now I see a coin on acsearch that is also OE but from different dies and 16.69g which is good weight for the issue.

http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=137126

The listing seller of this coin mentions Hersh, Additions and Corrections to Martin J. Price´s "The Coinage in the name of Alexander the Great and Philip Arrhidaeus" and "Seems Unedited".  I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has this reference what is said about OE coins (if anything) or what is the latest date for this series that is listed.  Obviously I would also like to hear if anyone has the OE cracked die coin and to know if it was bought as fourree.  I would also like to see any fourree Arados tetradrachms of the series but of other dates and solid coins over year O other than the one linked above. 

Thanks to those who read this far.  Another post here suggests there are more people here now interested in coin of Arados so I felt the need to ask. 

Offline Akropolis

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Re: Arados fourree tetradrachm
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2015, 01:33:36 pm »
Doug:
Can't help on your  question, but I attach below a specimen of a different date for comparison. I don't know what you mean by "OE" for a date. I thought the dates on these where Phoenician letters, as on mine.
Mine is 16.9 grams.
PeteB

Online Pekka K

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Re: Arados fourree tetradrachm
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2015, 02:03:41 pm »

HGC10 #61 lists dates 17 to 54 as Phoenician and
dates 58 to 92 as Greek letters. OE = 75 (185/4 BC).

Pekka K

Offline Akropolis

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Re: Arados fourree tetradrachm
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2015, 04:05:25 pm »
Ahah!
Live and learn!!!
THANKS, Pekka!
PeteB

Offline n.igma

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Re: Arados fourree tetradrachm
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2015, 08:07:56 pm »
The listing seller of this coin mentions Hersh, Additions and Corrections to Martin J. Price´s "The Coinage in the name of Alexander the Great and Philip Arrhidaeus" and "Seems Unedited".  I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has this reference what is said about OE coins (if anything) or what is the latest date for this series that is listed.  

The Hersh paper is to be found in Studies in Greek Numismatics in Memory of Martin Jessop Price. R Ashton and S Hurter eds. Spink, London 1998 - pages 135-144.

The paper makes no reference to this coin type or the date.  The only additions for Arados noted by Hersh are a 1/2 drachm and an obol completely unrelated to your coin and dating to the late fourth century ... in fact now re-attributed to Babylon II as are all the coins Price previously attributed to Arados in the series Price P138-P156 and Price 3336-3364.  The Arados mint was closed from 320-245 BC.  Your coin dates to the autonomous series after the mint re-opened in ca 245 BC, a fouree of one in a series produced from 245-167 BC and as noted by Pekka dated to year 75=185/4 BC.

The citation in the auction of this reference appears to be a "red herring" other than to say there is no reference to this coin type in Hersh Additions and Corrections paper.  Why the attribution would say this, I have no idea as there are plenty of other Price updates that similarly make no reference to your coin type!

Probably they wanted to make the attribution appear more learned and the coin appear rare (which Year 75 examples are, relative to others in the series) by virtue of its non-appearance in Hersh's Additions and Corrections to Price? .... meaningless sales blurb in other words!

The most appropriate attribution reference for this coin is:
Duyrat, Frédérique. 2005. Arados hellénistiqué étude historique et monétaire. Bibliothèque archéologique et historique – T. 173. Institut Français du Proche-Orient. Beirut.

Your coin is a fouree of Duyrat Autonomous Emission Series I, # 1341 of which one example is catalogued: ex- Gorny 42, 11 Oct 1988, 187 weight 17.1g.
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline n.igma

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Re: Arados fourree tetradrachm
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2015, 11:59:45 pm »
Forgot to mention that Duyrat #1341 is listed in her catalogue of dies as coming from from dies D42-R154.

The same obverse die was used to strike all of Year 74 and the first of Year 76 coins in her catalogue.  

That is two say one obverse die was in use for more than two years, highlighting the low mintage around this time and in year 75 in particular .... highlights the relative rarity of Duyrat #1341 and perhaps a relative scarcity of coinage in Year 75 was an incentive for fouree production?

Unfortunately Duyrat does not illustrate #1341 so I cannot say whether your coin is derived from a copy of the official dies for that year.  However, I note that it appears to be from different dies to that of the acsearch (Kunker) authentic example to which you provided a link... image below.  I assume this is from official dies i.e. D42-R154 of Duyrat in which case your coin is from unofficial/forgers dies.

Hope this and the preceding posts answer your questions.

Every so often I ask this question in the hope that someday someone will reply.  Forgive me if you have read it before.  Some questions take longer to answer than others.  This one is at 25 years.  

Seek and ye shall find.... even if it takes 25 years!  ;D
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Arados fourree tetradrachm
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2015, 04:52:32 am »
Thank you very much.  The use of one die for multiple years is very enlightening. 

Offline Arados

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Re: Arados fourree tetradrachm
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2015, 05:41:50 am »

The Hersh paper is to be found in Studies in Greek Numismatics in Memory of Martin Jessop Price. R Ashton and S Hurter eds. Spink, London 1998 - pages 135-144.

The paper makes no reference to this coin type or the date.  The only additions for Arados noted by Hersh are a 1/2 drachm and an obol completely unrelated to your coin and dating to the late fourth century ... in fact now re-attributed to Babylon II as are all the coins Price previously attributed to Arados in the series Price P138-P156 and Price 3336-3364.  The Arados mint was closed from 320-245 BC.  Your coin dates to the autonomous series after the mint re-opened in ca 245 BC, a fouree of one in a series produced from 245-167 BC and as noted by Pekka dated to year 75=185/4 BC.



Thanks N.igma for clearing up the attributions for Price P138-P156 & Price 3336-3364. I do not own a copy of Hersh´s papers yet and these coins have been puzzling me for a very long time. I could not fully understand why they were deemed to be from Arados in the first place, the monograms and symbols convinced me almost immediately that they belonged elsewhere.

Additionally there are many more coins in Price 1 & 2 that appear curiously out of place, but as these do not belong to my collecting area i will remain sceptic for the time being.

It´s always a pleasure reading your posts.

P.S Check Price 3344* (Müller 1507) i think Gabala ?

P.P.S It could be appropriate at this time to start a new thread if one doesn’t already exist, titled perhaps “ Coinage In The name Of Alexander & Phillip”. A gathering point for this fascinating series of coins and where the symbols and monograms can be discussed more thoroughly.

Offline n.igma

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Re: Arados fourree tetradrachm
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2015, 11:31:45 pm »

1) Additionally there are many more coins in Price 1 & 2 that appear curiously out of place, but as these do not belong to my collecting area i will remain sceptic for the time being.

2) It´s always a pleasure reading your posts.

3) P.S Check Price 3344* (Müller 1507) i think Gabala ?

4) P.P.S It could be appropriate at this time to start a new thread if one doesn’t already exist, titled perhaps “ Coinage In The name Of Alexander & Phillip”. A gathering point for this fascinating series of coins and where the symbols and monograms can be discussed more thoroughly.

1) Correct a lot has changed in the last twenty four years since Price's magnum opus.

2) Thanks. Its nice to know that some people enjoy discussion of ever evolving numismatic understanding and  developments in the field of attribution.

3)  Price 3344 = SC 94.2a = Babylon II - refer point 4 below and new thread for more dteails.

4) Great idea and long overdue in my opinion.  The Alexander series is probably amongst the most under rated on this discussion board, yet the most deserving of consideration for those who like their coins to come with history attached.  I've taken the initiative to give your idea form https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=100521.msg619920;topicseen#msg619920 and look forward to some enlivening discussion and thinking.
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