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Author Topic: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina  (Read 138684 times)

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Offline wolfgang336

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Re:French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #50 on: March 27, 2005, 12:20:59 am »
I also just found this, not for sale by Monneron, but another seller. Is it ex. Monneron minus patina, or authentic?

Evan

vic9128

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #51 on: April 13, 2005, 04:34:45 pm »
this may help.

Offline wolfgang336

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #52 on: April 13, 2005, 04:38:23 pm »
The campgates, votives, and the rarer Constantine issues are the only ones that concern me. The seller has already proven themselves as venders of fraudulent merchandise. I'm hard pressed to make a judgement, but I'd lean towards fake until somebody gives me an acceptable explanation for the patina, die matches, and abundance of scarce types. Nevertheless, I'll be interested to see what it looks like when you've gotten that crap off of it (I've already seen the CG under COTD). Anybody willing to send a few of these to Sear for authentication?

Evan

[edit] I see you've already posted it! It still looks odd to me though. I look foreward to Joe getting an example. It's from the Arles mint though, which most of our suspect coins are coming from. Can anybody find another example of this coin? Same dies?

vic9128

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2005, 04:40:38 pm »
Well, here are two more.

vic9128

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #54 on: April 13, 2005, 05:51:32 pm »
here is a pic of the campgate.

vic9128

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #55 on: April 13, 2005, 09:01:50 pm »
two more campgates

vic9128

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #56 on: April 13, 2005, 09:02:30 pm »
two more

vic9128

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #57 on: April 13, 2005, 09:03:26 pm »
two more, there are more but this is a lot of work.

vic9128

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #58 on: April 13, 2005, 10:49:19 pm »
I am going to ask the gentleman I got mine from how he cleaned them. Hopefully he will reply.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #59 on: April 13, 2005, 11:10:44 pm »
Quote from: vic9128 on April 13, 2005, 10:49:19 pm
I am going to ask the gentleman I got mine from how he cleaned them. Hopefully he will reply.

You didn't get them from monneron?  How did you get the original pics with the green?
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vic9128

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #60 on: April 14, 2005, 06:42:42 am »
When I saw all the great coins this guy was selling, I was wondering where he got them. I looked through his feedback for recent purchases and saw monneron. Then I went through all the monnerron auctions and downloaded the original green pics and matched them up with the after pic.

Offline Varangian

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #61 on: April 14, 2005, 10:54:06 pm »
Well, since I kinda got dragged into this, I'll put in my dos centavos...

I bought that Sarmatia Devicta from a dealer who bought it from monneron.  I had no idea it was from monneron until Victor mentioned it while we were discussing another matter.

I see absolutely nothing to indicate it's a fake.  I have attached a comparison photo with another of my Devictas from LugdunumToned silvering with hard green encrustations, bought from an impeccable dealer, most probably genuine.  A good "touchstone".

The monneron coin is, to my eyes, definitely genuine when placed against this known example.  The wave of the hair, the curve of the laurel tassle...if this is a forgery, it's a dam*ed good one.  The only oddity is a slight sharpness to the nose, which is not uncommon on Constantinian coinage, and may not even be as sharp as depicted once in-hand.

The reverse is also quite similar in every respect.

I don't know about the rest of the coins, but I doubt the Devicta is a fake.

Offline Frans Diederik

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #62 on: April 15, 2005, 03:52:29 am »
For the sake of multiple comparison I just add my Monneron I bought recently (out of scientific interest as to its authenticity, of course, and not because I liked it!)
It was terribly green, which came off rather easily after gentle rubbing with bees'wax.

Frans

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #63 on: April 15, 2005, 09:29:39 am »
People who are waiting for an expert in-hand opinion of these coins may have missed Barry Murphy's condemnation of them earlier in the thread. Barry, who was CNG's senior numismatist for 11 years (before founding his own firm), appears to have seen a selection of these coins in hand both with and without "patina", and considers them to be modern.

Of course these may be a mix of modern and ancient coins with that uniform patina applied, but to my mind that only makes the mix more dangerous and reason to avoid them. It's also noticable that the more seemingly obvious fakes and high proportion of rarities initially offered (see the beginning of this thread) has disappeared, and perhaps the mix of genuine coins has increased... The result of message board feedback perhaps?

Ben

Quote
I'm joining this discussion quite late I see. In fact I didn't notice this subject until I saw that there were 95 replies. I have read only a few of the replies, but I've looked at all the photos, so if I'm repeating a conclusiion that's already been reached I apologize in advance.

In my opinion all of the coins pictured in this discussion with that crappy, powdery looking green patina are fake.

First off the patinas. If we were looking at a single hoard, it would be possible for all the coins to have the same patina, but we are not looking at a hoard. The range of issues and denominations is too broad to represent a single hoard. You never find early Constantines in the same hoard as Magnentius'. The patina is modern in my opinion and chemically applied.

Second, the flans. Under the patina, all the flans are uniformly smooth with the same dark brown color. There is really no variation in any of the flans, from many mint and many different emperors. The flans in my opinion have been mass produced and are wrong for the time period. Most appear to rise slightly at the edge.

Third, the devices. All of the dies, from Constantine to Magnentius appear to have been cut by the same hand. There is a similarity in style that goes from one coin to the next. While there is some variation in the portraits, the underlying style appears the same on all the coins. I don't like the way the letters on all the coins appear in a perfect arc. There are no letters cut too high or too low. The Rome mint Constantine with the seated Roma, the mint mark has been butchered and is completely wrong.

In my opinion none are ancient, all are fake. Study them closely and I'd avoid this seller. You may see them show up with different patinas after whomever is making them realizes the patinas are recognizable.

Barry Murphy

hooverman

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #64 on: April 16, 2005, 04:13:33 am »
A little poser.......Another Sarmatia.....is it real or is it fake??......Is it a monneron or is it from a completely different source??

hooverman

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #65 on: April 16, 2005, 06:40:23 am »
I think that some points are missing from this debate. I do not put the case forward for monneron or against but I don't think all the points are being looked at in a considered manner. At the end of the day if you think these or any other coins are fake don't buy them.

The coins do not come from a single hoard source, this is without doubt. If the hoard option is to be believed then to my mind there are three, Early and late Constantinian and one of the Magnentius period. These, due to the underlying patination will have been found within the same locale which is not as unbelievable as you at first may think. (The Langtoft hoards were deposited 25 years apart yet were found less than 30yds apart.) Monneron would naturally declare that these coins come from a collection as opposed to a hoard, this is without doubt. If he has his hands on any kind of hoard and was selling them on ebay the French authorities would certainly pick them up and France has some of the most restrictive policies on portable antiquities in the world. For instance it is an offence to use a metal detector to purposefully look for antiquities. The hoard(s) option is definately viable when discussing the provenance of the coins but only from that viewpoint.


hooverman

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #66 on: April 16, 2005, 06:42:44 am »
The patination has been added after cleaning, this is without doubt. What the real question is is why? To age the coins (!) is not an issue from a serious point of view. When you consider the quality of many of the dies why take all the care, that obviously has been taken, producing fake (?) dies of this quality only to add a patination of this type, which completely detracts from the coinage. It seems illogical to me that a forger producing dies of this quality wouldn't be as 'clued-up' on patination. An adequate explanation for its application could be naievety in the 'arts' of applying patination or to cover the fact that these coins have been cleaned initially using an acid solution in an ultrasonic cleaner, a process which often leaves a burnt and undesirable effect on the coins. As an example of this taking place I refer you to a certain well known seller on ebay (formerly on Yahoo) who is selling a lot of Asses etc that have been cleaned utilising this method and the results are not particularly pleasing. (Come to think of it the original patination on all his coins is constant and they cover a 400 year period!!)
Due to the encrustations and deposits that form on hoard coins, many of which cannot be identified in their original state, many finders use the 'acid' method. On many coins it strips everything, but on others patches of deposits cannot be removed without some forced method. Attached is a coin from the Monneron sales which has had the added patination removed by myself. The deposit on the coin has had a forced method used by myself to remove the majority of it and this reveals something that is very interesting, clear evidence of silvering. My only explanation in this case is that the coin was too harshly cleaned prior to patination and it was stripped to bare metal apart from the awkward section of deposit which is now the only section displaying the silver. This tends to add to the theory of naievity rather than anything else. Complete economic nonsense for a forger to make up these particular dies, silver dip the coins produced, add mineralised deposits for good effect then re-clean the coins and add an awful patina!!!


hooverman

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #67 on: April 16, 2005, 06:43:39 am »
On the question of die types I have kept records of all of Monnerons sales and have found numerous deviations for singular coin types. The argument is made that many of the coins are similar but this is not describing them as 'the same', which clearly they are not. Surely this, as collectors, is what we are all about, the differences. You only have to look at the two Monneron sarmatias above to see there are clear differences. You could argue the point of manipulation of existing dies but this makes as little economic sense to the forger as the production of numerous initial die types. It would be prohibitively expensive on this series of coins considering the return you are likely to get. Of course I do not dismiss the argument that he may well be taking the long term return option but it's a hell of a lot of outlay and work for the return he would get. As an hourly rate he'd make more at the KWIK-E mart!

The question of the numerous rarities contained within his sales could easily be answered. IF they are hoarded material the amount of these would entirely depend on the size of the hoard. In the Langtoft 2 hoard (at some 2000 pieces a modest hoard) there was one Crispus (Trier issue) that displayed a chi-ro on the shield, how many of these have you seen? If Monnerons hoard(s) is 10-20'000 + how many rarities would you expect. Also if the hoard(s), as is entirely likely, has been found in France you would expect Arelate coinage at a greater rate than say London issues.

Stylistically I have reservations about these coins,the Magnentius/Decentius issues more so but as I don't collect this period I'll bow to those that do. This is the most significant issue for me when discussing their provenance. I cannot however reconcile the stylistic similarities when I take everything else into account. It still comes down, for me, to the economic sense in producing this coinage. Far better as another contributor said if you have this level of skill to go for Vitellius etc.

USE YOUR JUDGEMENT BUT CONSIDER ALL THE FACTS FIRST.

On another point, I am the gentleman that sold on the 'cleaned' monnerons and I would say to those that desribe me as 'peddler' etc, have a look at the original auction prices as opposed to what I received for them. I think I made a profit on one coin, most I took a loss on. They were sold with leftovers from the Langtofts I originally acquired and others. I was quite happy to purchase these for my collection. Explanation; I'm broke!! No surrreptitious motives but divorces are expensive undertakings!! Please pay due regard to what personal and slanderous statements you make without first having gained the facts behind such. Thank you.

Offline Numerianus

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #68 on: April 16, 2005, 07:37:17 am »
I must say that the arguments  of hooverman are   strong and professional.
To my opinion,  the economical  motivation is  the one which cannot be rejected as it was. 
I  remember that  it was discussed  at the very  beginnng, why this great
talent concentrates himself on the cheap coins of the 4th century. I remember the  reply that they are not so cheap and  production of  these forgeries are rentable.  Their  average price is about 30 USD, is not it?
Indeed, why not to go for Vitellius (Pupiens, Pertinax etc.)- much easier  work  with much higher results.   
We also discussed the method  how the coins could be repatinated in this  awkward way.
Strangely, these parts of the discussion were  removed (thread  lost a couple of dosens of posts).
It would be nice if  the moderators could  restore them  if it is possible since the discussion may turn to an
 unexpected  end. 
 

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #69 on: April 16, 2005, 09:47:08 am »
 We have not had a single Procurator Monetae or Procurator Caesaris express a positive opinion of these coins.  Our leading experts that have expressed opinions have ALL condemned the coins or at least expressed strong concerns. 

The older posts were deleted because they were from less experienced collectors and indicated there was more of a debate than there is.  They were from our less experienced members and did not really add to the discussion.  I did not delete posts that indicated the coins might be genuine if they added to the discussion.  (Yes, I realize this is my opinion.)

I believe the thread is MORE INFORMATIVE without the speculation of inexperienced people.  This was not meant to end freedom of speech, it was meant to highlight what the people who actually might know are saying, people like Jeff Clark and Barry Murphy. 

hooverman's arguments might be strong and professional, except...The coins are fake.  They are all engraved by the same hand (that is the real give-away).  They are all on the same flans.  They all had the same fake patina.  They were all sold by the same guy.  They are the most dangerous numerous fakes of common late bronze, perhaps ever.  So, of course there are people that cannot see they are fake.  They are good enough that after people clean them, individual examples will probably pass dealers who do not take the time to look very very carefully at every late Roman bronze (and I can tell you most of us do not have time for that).  We just have to hope that not too many people buy them and clean them and sell them as genuine.  We just have to hope that monneron doesn't get a better patina.  We also need to keep putting every example we see on the fake coin reports
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Offline Varangian

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #70 on: April 16, 2005, 11:54:31 am »
A little poser.......Another Sarmatia.....is it real or is it fake??......Is it a monneron or is it from a completely different source??

I don't know if it's monneron, but I don't think it's fake.

Comparing the reverse to another in my collection, which also came from an excellent dealer and has hard green crusties on the obverse, the lettering is almost exactly the same, and the design details, like the sweep of the skirt, the design of the wings, the hand gripping the palm, are also very similar.

The obverse bust on your teaser is a little cheeky, but has the characteristic "Dumbo ear", thick neck and tassle curl.  The lettering is also very characteristic.

I can't offer an opinion on the rest of the coins, but if the Devictas shown so far are fake, then half my collection I've spent the last year-and-a-half is as well.

I'll gladly send off the monneron I bought as well as any of my other Devictas to any expert who offers to decide the matter....


Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #71 on: April 16, 2005, 12:41:53 pm »
At least two experts have alread decided.

Barry Murphy, CNG's senior numismatist for 11 years (before founding his own firm), is an expert.  He has condemned the coins.
Jeff Clark is a late Roman bronze specialist and an expert.  He has condemned the coins.
I have condemed the coins.

But I guess we all still need to wait for an expert to decide the matter?
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Offline Varangian

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #72 on: April 16, 2005, 01:01:36 pm »
But I guess we all still need to wait for an expert to decide the matter?

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not willing to toss several thousands of dollars worth of coins bought from reputable dealers with many signs of authenticity, such as hard green encrustations and toned silvering, based on opinions of photographs.


Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #73 on: April 16, 2005, 01:10:21 pm »
Of course not.  Your coins purchased from other dealers are not fake.  Monneron's coins may look like your coins.  They may even look identical in pictures.  They are made to look like your geniune coins.  That is what makes them dangerous fakes.  But the fact that they exist does not make your genuine coins fake. 
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Offline Varangian

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Re: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina
« Reply #74 on: April 16, 2005, 01:26:09 pm »
But I didn't buy the Devicta that started my involvement in this thread from monneron.  I bought it from another, though admittedly unkown to me, dealer who had bought it from monneron.

Before I made the purchase, I compared the photos to the coins I have.  My conclusion was, basically, "Spiky nose, but otherwise absolutely within the style of Lugdunum, with some charateristics that might indicate the same hand as some of the coins in my possession.  It would be an interesting addition."  No brainer.  Buy.  With no idea that it was an ex-monneron.

Now, there is a hue and cry that all monnerons are fake.  Where does that leave my coins which share many of the same lettering, design oddities and engraving quirks, upon which I based my comparison when buying?  How do I know that the other established dealers I bought from didn't buy from monneron, making the same mistake I did?  You yourself admit that not much time is wasted inspecting bronzes.

So, what do I do?  Submit all of my coins of this type to Sear to get them "papered"?


 

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