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Author Topic: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens  (Read 22588 times)

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Offline Gert

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2016, 06:43:25 pm »
I would have to disagree with you about that, Joe. Sending pieces of the 'true cross' to various churches to be venerated is quite different from destroying a piece of the true cross. Of all the relics, the true cross was considered the most sacred, and to burn even a piece of this most valuable object in the world would be unconceivable. What's more, by this time, there were ways to 'transport' the sacred power of a relic, or a saint, to an object - by touch or by proximity, so to create a token blessing such as these, there was no necessity to destroy a piece of the relic by burning. Check out Gary Vikan's 'Early Byzantine Pilgrimage Art', which will be worth your time reading.
I have also read this theory only in sales descriptions, and I think it is just uncritically copied from one dealer to the next. Still, I'd like to know the source.

Regards
Gert

Offline cmcdon0923

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2017, 12:56:54 am »
I just picked up this example today.

It is 20 mm in diameter and weighs 1.68 grams.

It is a type "d", and I attribute it as a "Mitchiner" 1074 or 1075....with preference towards 1074.

Offline Simon

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2017, 12:50:37 pm »
Congratulations a very nice addition to any collection.

 I want one, for my collection, I just have not seen any lately.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline cmcdon0923

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2018, 12:31:56 am »
An example just sold on on another coin site, and in the description was this (emphasis, mine):

Intact with natural find patina and original soil deposits adhering which can easily be removed if required. Much clearer representations on the obverse than usual for the type. From the original find that came from Baldwins’ in London circa 1993.

The original find was purchased by Baldwins in London circa 1993. There were two main types in the find: the type shown here and a smaller group showing piece of a different type showing legend around the cross.An example of the second type is in the British Museum collection. Mitchiner devotes a full page to the examples in his collection.

   
A dealer once mentioned to me about a hoard having been found in a structure in Turkey which he referred to as the "Maker's Hoard".  I wonder if the "find" purchased by Baldwins' is the same as this hoard.  Does anyone know if Baldwins' ever documented and/or published anything about their acquisition of this hoard, or perhaps if they included anything in the descriptions when they sold off pieces?

Offline djmacdo

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2019, 06:17:28 pm »
Years ago when these first appeared I did some work for a dealer who gave me four complete specimens, three of the larger variety and one smaller.  I forgot about them completely until I ran across them the other day in a cabinet I no longer use.  All are complete and quite decent as these go.  Now the question is how best to pass them on to people who will appreciate them.


Offline Vladislav D

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2019, 06:25:53 pm »
It will be wonderful if you’ll post pictures of your examples . For the last two years, since this topic was active, I saw just a few new examples offered for sale. The last  one in the end of this August , with the same attribution . It has been about a eight years since I started this topic and it seems that no any new information has been found .
Regards,
Vlad

Offline Molinari

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #31 on: December 25, 2019, 12:07:47 pm »
I received mine as a wonderful Christmas gift from a trusted mentor and friend. This is the type with three figures—who are they?

Gert makes a lot of sense, but I’d be interested to know if a chemist could safely determine if wood ash is in the mixture.

Gert, are there many ancient sources that discuss “transferring” the sacred power of objects?

Offline Molinari

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #32 on: December 25, 2019, 12:56:52 pm »
It could be the three Marys present at the crucifixion.

Offline JBF

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #33 on: December 25, 2019, 03:06:47 pm »
my understanding, which of course should be taken as the gospel word :o, is that they followed good homeopathic practices, in that the mixed the ashes with a set quantity of clay, and the mixed that clay with a greater amount of clay.  Just like for gold they mix it with a gallon, and then that gallon with a hundred gallons.  I am sure that it is all very exact science  ;D

Offline Simon

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #34 on: December 25, 2019, 09:16:32 pm »
Great coin, great gift. Congratulations!

Happy Holidays

Simon
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Molinari

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2019, 03:43:47 pm »
I showed a friend who is a priest and he thinks we see three shells on this variety, shells being a symbol for pilgrims. On the type with two, which looks more like people, he said it is likely Mary and John.

I think he might be correct!

Offline Simon

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2019, 04:09:36 pm »
medieval symbolism differs greatly from symbolism of today. I have not heard of your friends thought shells represent Pilgrims ( I am not doubting, I just have not heard that before.) Shells were used to symbolize heaven, the pearly gates, the shells were an easy way to represent pearls.

I deal with art from the 15th and 16th century on a regular basis. One of my favorite symbols that is commonly used in that time period was the snail, normally seen with the virgin because it was a symbol of purity. Since the snail was Born from the dew. Not a symbol we would use with the Virgin now.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline cmcdon0923

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2019, 05:00:48 pm »
Interesting...and very nicely preserved.....example.

I'm not sure those actually represent shells, as if they do, it would represent a new type of True Cross token beyond the generally accepted four major types.  

In a message posted on page 1 of this thread displaying the generally accepted major types, the second type illustrated from the top (aka, "Type b") shows some vestigial ornamentation at the bottom of each figure.....not as strong as on Molinari's example, but not just a plain blob either.  And just above the plate, an example posted by Gert shows traces of this "ornamentation" also.


Craig

Offline Molinari

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #38 on: December 26, 2019, 05:35:50 pm »
He says it comes from St. James, Patron of the Camino, and was later adopted for pilgrims in general.

Offline djmacdo

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #39 on: December 26, 2019, 07:32:02 pm »
I'll try to photo my specimens, but I am a poor photography indeed.

Offline cmcdon0923

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2019, 01:57:10 am »
Here are my two.....

Offline Macerata1

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Re: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2020, 06:30:59 am »
He says it comes from St. James, Patron of the Camino, and was later adopted for pilgrims in general.

Yes shells are common medieval symbol for pilgrimage, especially St. James (but most probably from a later date than this token)

 

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