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Author Topic: Norman history  (Read 3085 times)

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Offline Ecgþeow

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Norman history
« on: September 04, 2005, 12:43:43 am »
Ok, so I always hear about William the Conqueror, the Norman Duke who invaded and conquered England.  But I also hear that the Byzantines fought the Normans, and now I see a coin on Ebay of Norman Sicily.  So where exactly did the Normans live that would allow them to do all of this, and are they the same people? 
help???

thanks,

~Zach

Offline Bacchus

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Re: Norman history
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2005, 02:30:51 am »
That simple question would require volumes to answer.  However, my simplistic understanding is that the Normans (Norse men) were decended from Viking stock who settled in Northern Europe - think northern modern day France. As Viking decendents they would be aware of the world at large and would have had much trading experience and knowledge passed down.  At that time much of the power in Europe extended from the Papacy - I think it was Pope Nicholas II who backed "William the Bast**d, Duke of Normandy" to attack the Anglo-Saxons and build upon the body of support for the Papcy independant from the Holy Roman Empire which was centralised more around modern day Germany/Austria.  The Normans invasion of Sicily (at approximately the same time) was organised along similar lines with similar goals.

So, The answer is yes  they were the same Normans

I hope this helps

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Offline Pscipio

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Re: Norman history
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2005, 02:57:42 am »
The Normans attacking Byzantium had crossed whole Russia by using the big rivers (Lena, Dnjepr, Volga). The name "Russia" decends from the norman prince Rus and his dynasty of the "Rurikids" that ruled the empire of Kiew from the 9. Century until 1598.

BTW: the Byzantine emperors were so impressed by the force of the norman warriors that they founded a life guard out of them.

Lars
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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Norman history
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2005, 05:11:04 am »
They crop up all over the place, and while they all descended from Scandinavian pirates who settled permanently, I'm not sure how closely one group was associated with another. Is there a decent overall history, as opposed to, say, a history of the Normans in England?
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Offline Pscipio

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Re: Norman history
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2005, 06:44:36 am »
"The Normans" (or Norsemans) surely were no single people and they were not ruled by one king like other medieval regions. In fact, medieval historians called many differing groups "Normans", some originated in todays Sweden, others coming down from todays Norway and Danemark. Until 9. and in some parts 10. Century, only small principalities and clans existed in Scandinavia, all raiding and trading on its own and I guess the first bigger norman princedoms only cam into existence after the normans got into closer contact with southern reigns. Afterwards, we know of kings in Scandinavia (Norway, Danemark, etc.), and then we have of course the dukes of the Normandy in northern France, the kingdom of Sicily, several principalities that originated during the crusades were many of the now christian Normans took part in, the empire of Kiew, but still many smaller norman clans continued to live without recognizing a king, for example on Iceland and Greenland.

Lars
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Offline Jochen

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Re: Norman history
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2005, 08:21:47 am »
At the begin of the 15th century even the Canary Islands were conquered by the Normans under Jean de Bethencourt and Gaifer de la Salle. About 100 years a Norman kingdom existed there until the Catholic kings Ferdinand II and Isabella I ceased it.

One of the biggest Norman trading places was Haithabu, near Sleswig/Germany.This place is digged out. Their houses in the first time were built by turned over ships as roofs. The found items you can see in the Haithabu museum in Sleswig. Haithabu was built c. AD 770 and destroyed AD 1050 during a battle between the Norwegian king Harald Hardrada and Sweyn II. Around AD 1000 it has about 1500 inhabitants and was the biggest city in the Baltic Sea area.

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Offline LordBest

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Re: Norman history
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2005, 08:38:21 am »
From an Anglo historical perspective you have to seperate Normans and Vikings (both Norsemen). Both the vikings and the Normans were in conflict with the Byzantine empire, it was the Normans who conquered Sicily and areas of southern Italy, the Normans being the Norse who settled in Normandy early on and became nominal subjects of the French king.
                                                 LordBest. 8)

Offline Bacchus

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Re: Norman history
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2005, 08:42:50 am »
As I remember the "French" king who granted the settlement there (the Treaty of Saint Clair sur Epte) had the unfortunate title of "Charles the Simple".

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Offline Ecgþeow

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Re: Norman history
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2005, 11:40:51 am »
thank you all.  Does anyone have a map of Norman Settlement?
thanks.
~Zach

Offline PeterD

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Re: Norman history
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2005, 01:41:22 pm »
It's as LordBest says.

This is a brief paragraph on the Normans in Sicily:

"In 1061 the Normans, under Robert Guiscard and his brother Roger I of Sicily, began the conquest of Sicily which was occupied by the Saracens, completing it in 1091. In 1127 Roger II, Count of Sicily, was recognized as Duke of Apulia and Calabria, and in 1130 he assumed the title of King of Sicily. The domain of Roger II was sometimes called the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, or the Two Sicilies, because the southern part of the Italian mainland was known as "Sicily on this side of Cape Faro"."

These were, of course, Normans from Normandy and the conquest of Sicily began before the conquest of England in 1066.

As someone whose home town is Hastings (the famous battle actually took place a few miles to the north), I have often wondered why the Normans who were supposed to be basically Norsemen or Vikings seem to have come across as completely French, especially the language which so comprehensively changed "English".

The Normans were also famous as mercenaries. For anyone interested in their exploits in Byzantium, I recommend the novels of Alfred Duggan, such as "Count Bohemond" and "The Lady for Ransom", which although fiction, stick closely to the known facts.
Peter, London

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Offline LordBest

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Re: Norman history
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2005, 02:05:18 pm »
The Normandy Normans were "Francophied", if you will, they adopted French language and some customs, but calling them French would be a really bad idea, back when they were around, they were sensitive on the subject.  ;) Eventaully of course they became completely French, in they way they became completely English in England, given a couple of hundred years.
                                                 LordBest. 8)

Offline slokind

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Re: Norman history
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2005, 03:31:30 pm »
Try Shepherd's Historical Atlas (the earlier editions are sharper, and you don't need post-WWI!), or, for Sicily Westermann's Atlas zur Welt-Geschichte, Mittlealter, p. 63, for Sicily, where the green sea-route arrows, with dates on them, are Normans  (though this atlas is better for HRE than anything else).  I am sorry to say that the Shorter Times Historical Atlas is useless here.  My copy of Shepherd is in my office...       
Pat L.           
N.B.  Jochen's scan from the same map, below, is BETTER.  Either he has a better edition (mine was ordered from Germany in the 1960s), or he made a more careful scan!  Both are from same Atlas, same map.  Pat                       

Offline Jochen

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Re: Norman history
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2005, 03:49:44 pm »
Here is p.63 from Westermann.

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Sorry, I haven't seen your map, because I was scanning! Looks similiar!

bruce61813

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Re: Norman history
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2005, 01:55:03 pm »
If I  remember my Scandanavian history courses, William the Conquers grandfather wasa Danish raider. the then King of France offerered to make him the Duke of the Normandy region, if he would protect the area from other raiders. The old man figured that was a better deal than sailing all over the place, so he stayed.
  As for England, there were several very early kings of England, down the Ethelred that were partly from the "vikings" by ancestery.  He was given a bum rap, as they say, as he and his army had just fought off some invaders to the north, marched 200 or so miles south to meet William, and fight again. It was probably only his death on the battlefield that allowed William to win.

Bruce

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Norman history
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2005, 05:39:05 pm »
That was Harold Godwinson, not Ethelred, who went down in history as 'the unready' because he didn't do so well against the Danes. Harold marched 200 miles from London to York in four days, collecting an army as he went, and destroyed an invading army under Harold Hardrada of Norway, then had to turn strainght round, march down to Kent, and fight again a week later. He lost partly due to ill-luck, and partly because the Normans had got themselves trapped, with their backs against the sea, and probably fought a lot harder than normal. If he'd won, it would have gone down in history as one of the greatest military feats in British history.

Northern England, the 'Danelaw', was conquered by the Danes in the 9th Century; the last Viking king of York was Erik Bloodaxe (947-948 and 952-954). Peace from Viking raids was eventually brought about by Knut (1016-1035); originally king of Denmark, he conquered England, later became king of Norway, and ruled, at least as a distant overlord,  large areas elsewhere in northern Europe including much of Scotland and Ireland. His empire collapsed after his death, and Saxons ruled again in England (I'm not sure of the exact relationship to the Danish royal house) until 1066.
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