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Author Topic: Re: Archaeological News  (Read 96610 times)

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Offline Enodia

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Re: Archaeological News
« Reply #125 on: May 02, 2013, 08:06:15 pm »
i apologise for going off topic here, but...

Taras, i was enjoying our PM discussion regarding that odd diobol, but your inbox is full and i can no longer PM you.

~ Peter

Offline areich

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Re: Archaeological News
« Reply #126 on: May 03, 2013, 07:05:24 am »
I didn't know this could happen. I never deleted a message, I have a lot of them.
Andreas Reich

Taras

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Re: Archaeological News
« Reply #127 on: May 03, 2013, 12:44:23 pm »
It can happen, I had capacity 100% full.
I just deleted lots of messages, now is 73% full.

Offline fluffy82

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Re: Archaeological News
« Reply #128 on: May 04, 2013, 05:18:32 pm »
There is nothing like the 5th emendment in Italy. The legislation on the private possession of archaeological heritage is rather rigid, and often ambiguous.
The postulate is that any archaeological resource (including ancient coins) belongs to the State. In the absence of documents proving an old pedigree, or a tax invoice issued by an authorized dealer, objects are considered to come from illegal excavations, and then seized, and the owner is sued for stolen goods.
In Italy, if you are looking for ancient stuff with a metal detector, you can be arrested. Many naive collectors have undergone criminal for selling or buying a single coin on ebay. If you have 99 ancient coins with regular documentation (ie: invoice, description drawn up by the seller with a photograph of the coin, and certificate of legal origin), and only 1 coin without documentation, they seize you all the 100 coins.

Which is a good thing, or many (important or not) archaeological findings would never see daylight...

Taras

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Re: Archaeological News
« Reply #129 on: May 04, 2013, 06:49:05 pm »
There is nothing like the 5th emendment in Italy. The legislation on the private possession of archaeological heritage is rather rigid, and often ambiguous.
The postulate is that any archaeological resource (including ancient coins) belongs to the State. In the absence of documents proving an old pedigree, or a tax invoice issued by an authorized dealer, objects are considered to come from illegal excavations, and then seized, and the owner is sued for stolen goods.
In Italy, if you are looking for ancient stuff with a metal detector, you can be arrested. Many naive collectors have undergone criminal for selling or buying a single coin on ebay. If you have 99 ancient coins with regular documentation (ie: invoice, description drawn up by the seller with a photograph of the coin, and certificate of legal origin), and only 1 coin without documentation, they seize you all the 100 coins.

Which is a good thing, or many (important or not) archaeological findings would never see daylight...

I think things should be problematized in a somewhat more complex way.
Such scrupulousness in persecuting private collectors should go hand in hand with a flawless management of Museums and archaeological sites, but in Italy, unfortunately, things do not always go well.
However, in general I agree with you. Cultural heritage should be a public good first.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Archaeological News
« Reply #130 on: May 05, 2013, 03:00:37 am »
Confiscation of personal possessions because you don't have a receipt that proves that you own them is simply arbitrary theft by the government. I don't have a receipt for all my old coins, just as I don't have a receipt for my old books, or for my shirts or for my basket of vegetables. Still, the state (in most countries) cannot confiscate these things unless they can prove someone else owns them, or that unusually suspicious circumstances apply (e.g, I was stopped whilst running away from a crime scene). I have no obligation do anything to show my Roman coins belong to me. I don't need to keep receipts or anything. I know that I bought them all legally and no-one else has a claim to them. That's all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_(law)
In common law countries, possession is itself a property right. Absent evidence to the contrary, it provides evidence of ownership. Possession of a thing for long enough can become ownership.

but it seems not in Italy.

Back to the Kouros (or to a coin collection in Italy): in most countries, the government needs to bring evidence before they can confiscate things e.g. "here is evidence that the Kouros came from tomb X or was stolen from collection Y". Lacking such proof, the assumption should be that it's owned legally by the possessor. Perhaps it was excavated in 1420 and passed, by sale and family inheritance, to the present owner. Perhaps it was exported from ancient Italy to decorate a house in Tyre since 400 AD, and bought there by Marco Polo on his return from China. Who knows. The current owner doesn't have to have a receipt. It should be enough for him to say "I've owned it since xxx and got it from yyy" and the obligation is on the government to prove he did not.

Anyway, my coins are my own. Forever. They belong to me. I bought them properly (incidentally almost none from Italy), I own them, and I'm keeping them.

rick2

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Re: Archaeological News
« Reply #131 on: May 05, 2013, 03:29:51 am »
Andrew dont go there !
i ve been banned from the italian forum lamoneta.it for expressing your exact same position on the subject

but somehow everyone on the forum was afraid to speak out or even worse thought that the authorities by seizing 500$ worth of coins (with all associated policing and judiciary costs) while Pompei is crumbling and other sites lay derelict were doing a fine job!

not only that but some fine minds started to suggest that each and every coin should be accompanied by documents proving the provenance !

I guess this explains why Italy is in decline and if they think like that than they deserve to be treated as slaves and not as citizens by their own authorities.

I m glad I left Italy.......

rick2

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Re: Archaeological News
« Reply #132 on: May 05, 2013, 03:35:25 am »
on top of that you should know that the Italian police comes knocking at your door at 6am like you were a common crack dealer
and that they come looking for one coin and end up taking your whole collection because they suspect that that too might have illicit provenance
so you end up a suspect , need to spend a few thousand euros in legal fees on a lawyer and for the next few years you are at the mercy of the wonderful Italian justice system.

all this while the police shows off the finds as if they were of primary importance to show off


Offline David Atherton

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Re: Archaeological News
« Reply #133 on: May 05, 2013, 08:51:30 am »
It can happen, I had capacity 100% full.
I just deleted lots of messages, now is 73% full.

Where is it that one can find out their capacity level? I've never seen it before nor have I ever deleted any of my old messages.

Taras

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Re: Archaeological News
« Reply #134 on: May 05, 2013, 09:02:56 am »
It can happen, I had capacity 100% full.
I just deleted lots of messages, now is 73% full.

Where is it that one can find out their capacity level? I've never seen it before nor have I ever deleted any of my old messages.

Offline David Atherton

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Re: Archaeological News
« Reply #135 on: May 05, 2013, 06:28:05 pm »
I don't have that capacity display at all. How odd.

Offline Platon

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Re: Archaeological News
« Reply #136 on: May 06, 2013, 01:21:47 am »
Quote
The postulate is that any archaeological resource (including ancient coins) belongs to the State.

How do they prove if a Roman coin was even found in Italy? Or do they seize any ancient artifact, so if I have a collection of ancient Indian coins without legal documentation do they take those too? 

Offline *Alex

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Re: Archaeological News
« Reply #137 on: May 06, 2013, 07:45:00 am »
I don't have that capacity display at all. How odd.

Neither do I.   :-\

Alex.

rick2

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Re: Archaeological News
« Reply #138 on: May 06, 2013, 08:09:20 am »
Quote
The postulate is that any archaeological resource (including ancient coins) belongs to the State.

How do they prove if a Roman coin was even found in Italy? Or do they seize any ancient artifact, so if I have a collection of ancient Indian coins without legal documentation do they take those too?  

they cant !
that s the problem , the law states that everything that was found after 1909 belongs to the state
i ll let you prove that !

there was a case of a guy who had a visit at 6am by the police for a lot of uncleaned coins he bought on ebay coming from serbia
and took everything

when you start to point out that all this is wrong and diabolical you get reply that its standard practice for the police to raid premises at that time of the day and that they are only doing their job
that is standard practice for the judge to open a line of investigation that will result you in having to hire an expensive lawyer for a few years
and that they are in italy and cant change the law
on top of that some very wise man start to argue that every bit is an important piece of archeology and that people who go with MD in ploughed field to look for dusturbed coins that are being corroded by all the chemicals used in agriculture are tumb raiders

this in a country where the decentius villa is losing money as it gets 5 visitor a day at 3 euro per ticket , and pompei is crumbling

what maddens me even more is that they go after the small guy who buys 10 euros worth of uncleaned coins on ebay and not after the proper tombaroli !
showing that the italian state is weak with the strongs and strong with the weaks

i guess the italians deserve to be treated that way

i was in turkey recently and was surprised and saddened to discover that the turks are a lot more clever and civilized than the italians !

Offline fluffy82

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Re: Archaeological News
« Reply #139 on: May 06, 2013, 06:10:42 pm »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_(law)
In common law countries, possession is itself a property right. Absent evidence to the contrary, it provides evidence of ownership. Possession of a thing for long enough can become ownership.

but it seems not in Italy.

That doesn't count for stolen goods... If I posess a stolen car for 15 years and they find out, I will still have to return the car if I can't prove that I actually bought it somewhere legally. The law says that any "ancient object" dug up is owned buy the state, so if you keep it to yourself it is stealing. Normally (and I know it isn't the case, unfortunately), every coin around should have a certificate saying where and when it was found, with a legal stamp that it has been catalogued by the state.
Anyway, you can't compare ancient coins or other similar objects with t-shirts or books. I don't keep receipt for my books, but if I ever buy a Picasso I wouldn't dream of throwing the "ownership deeds" away.

rick2

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Re: Archaeological News
« Reply #140 on: May 07, 2013, 03:56:42 am »
every coin around should have a certificate saying where and when it was found, with a legal stamp that it has been catalogued by the state.

are you italian by chance ?
because that is exactly the same argument that i get in the other forum

there is a fundamental mistake in comparing a picasso which is a unique opera to a gloria exercitus which isn t and is known in million of pieces

have you actually ever considered how many roman coins there are around ?
probably from hundreds of millions to billions
do you think such a system is feasible ?
and if it s feasible what are its costs?
do you also know what it would do to entry level coins that costs a few $ and are the main route to ancient coin collecting and history ?

if you are italian
do you think notoriously inefficient italian state would be capable not just of setting up such a system but of making it work ?
because judging from the half finished projects and potholed road i find in italy i have serious doubt
have you ever heard the expression cant organize a pissup in a brewery ?

Offline fluffy82

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Re: Archaeological News
« Reply #141 on: May 07, 2013, 10:11:29 am »
every coin around should have a certificate saying where and when it was found, with a legal stamp that it has been catalogued by the state.

are you italian by chance ?
because that is exactly the same argument that i get in the other forum

there is a fundamental mistake in comparing a picasso which is a unique opera to a gloria exercitus which isn t and is known in million of pieces

have you actually ever considered how many roman coins there are around ?
probably from hundreds of millions to billions
do you think such a system is feasible ?
and if it s feasible what are its costs?
do you also know what it would do to entry level coins that costs a few $ and are the main route to ancient coin collecting and history ?

if you are italian
do you think notoriously inefficient italian state would be capable not just of setting up such a system but of making it work ?
because judging from the half finished projects and potholed road i find in italy i have serious doubt
have you ever heard the expression cant organize a pissup in a brewery ?

Lol, no I'm not italian :)
But I'm european, and I think this way of thinking is quite general here.

I don't think it's a mistake to compare antiquities with Picasso: both are considered "art", both are old, both are object of collections (private and museums), both could possibly be worth a lot of money, both have a broad cultural importance.

Like I said, I know the system of cataloging and certificates is almost impossible to achieve, but it would be an ideal world... If they had done this since the beginning, those hundreds of Ancient Egyptian mummies and artifacts would not be lost today, and who knows what other treasures are now still lost or hidden without anyone knowing about them?

Offline Xenophon

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Re: Archaeological News
« Reply #142 on: June 18, 2013, 06:29:01 am »
Oxfordshire's earliest recorded resident: Roman tombstone goes on display:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-22873707

Offline David Atherton

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Re: Archaeological News
« Reply #143 on: June 18, 2013, 10:00:21 am »
Oxfordshire's earliest recorded resident: Roman tombstone goes on display:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-22873707

The Roman kind of reminds me of the elderly uncle Aquila in Rosemary's Sutcliff's The Eagle of the Ninth who retired to Britannia. I quite enjoyed this little article. Thanks for posting it!

Offline Xenophon

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Re: Archaeological News
« Reply #144 on: July 04, 2013, 09:15:20 am »

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Offline Arados

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Re: Archaeological News
« Reply #146 on: August 23, 2013, 06:56:43 am »
Hidden Slave Tunnel Discovered Beneath Hadrian's Villa:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/10255167/Archaeologists-discover-hidden-slave-tunnel-beneath-Hadrians-Villa.html

It would be facinating to get a sneak preview of the tunnels in September, i will be stopping over a few nights in Tivoli and was planning on visiting Hadrians palace with a friend of mine who was born in the town. Who knows he might be able to talk the Italian archaeologists into letting us have a look round.....fingers crossed.

Offline David Atherton

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Re: Archaeological News
« Reply #147 on: March 19, 2014, 11:24:41 pm »
A group of tiny Dead Sea Scrolls have been found. http://www.timesofisrael.com/nine-tiny-new-dead-sea-scrolls-come-to-light/

Offline *Alex

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Re: Archaeological News
« Reply #148 on: March 20, 2014, 07:25:34 pm »

Offline Britannicus

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Re: Archaeological News
« Reply #149 on: April 10, 2014, 11:03:55 pm »

 

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