FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board
Numismatic and History Discussion Forums => Byzantine Coins Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Vladislav D on February 14, 2012, 11:52:39 am
-
Got this for Christmas - "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens - not a coins , but I think is pretty cool have them in my coin collection . No much information about them . This is from [REMOVED BY ADMIN]
-
Hi,
Interesting token
I picked one up, in November last year, fits in nicely with my small Byzantine Collection, the only short article i know about these tokens is in Mitchiner i think? where it states "
"these pieces probably allude to the recovery of the true cross by the emperor Heraclius, these pieces may have been officially produced for distribution to those who attended the true cross on its journey", interesting thought
Mine along with those shown by Mitchiner apparently came from a hoard of these that was found in Turkey.
Obviously if anyone can shine any more light i would also be interested.
Regards
apgrassman
-
I've wanted to pick one up too, but most are broken in some way. I have seen complete ones, but the price is as to be expected.
I copied this description from one that I saw for sale:
During the war between the Byzantine and Sassanian Empires during 7th Century AD, Rhsru II captured Jerusalem and took the true cross as spoils of war. Taken back to Persia it was regained by Heraclius and taken to Constantinople and then across Asia minor back to its resting place at Jerusalem. During its return travel legend has it that a piece of the cross was taken and burned , the ashes were then mixed with clay and tokens were made commemorating the return of the true cross to Jerusalem. The tokens show an impression of the true cross with the heads of St Peter and St Paul in the angles of the cross. cf. Pilgrimage: Becket to Elvis, 1995, no. 82
-
This piece of information, that a piece of the true cross was mixed with clay, I could only find in sales descriptions. These of course aren't the most objective sources of information and I wonder if there is any substance to this element. Could be just a sales pitch.
Regards
Gert
-
Agreed.....just passing along something I had read about the tokens.
Here's an image of one of the few complete ones I've seen offered.....
-
Is there any actual evidence that the figures depicted at the foot of the cross are SS Peter and Paul? Or is it just some dealer's guess? Constantine and Helena would seem much more obvious choices, or perhaps John and the BVM.
Bill R.
-
If these tokens allude to the recovery of the True Cross by Heraclius, which they seem to do, the figures are indeed more plausibly identified as St. Constantine and St. Helena, rather than Peter and Paul.
Here are two tokens in my collection: the type with X's on the horizontal bar of the cross and the type with H-N-E-I in the fields.
Regards
Gert
-
Very nice examples, Gert.
-
I had never heard of these before, interesting pieces.
I was looking for the reference:
Pilgrimage: Becket to Elvis, 1995, no. 82
That was mentioned as supporting evidence. I have JSTOR and other University access here in the states and have been unable to locate it. What type of source is it?
cw
-
After spending a few hours on internet I find only two more small pieces of information. One from The Britsh Museum - about what Simon Bendall donated some tokens to museum . Second one from William M. Rosenblum Rare Coins Mailbid Sale #35D ( November 10, 2005 ) LOT 409 - where says : "(See Staffordshire University's Flaxman Gallery "A Pilgrim's clay token from the Holyland" 1995-1996)"
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]
-
I have found a few sites using "Mitchiner Medieval Pilgrim & Secular badges 1070"
as a attribution. Curious as it seems to be a listing for finds in Britain. I have been able to request by my University interlibrary loan, but it will be a week or so till it arrives.
cw
-
What is the size of these tokens?
-
I have the Mitchiner book in my library. In the text, they are connected to the recovery of the True Cross, but no indication of an actual piece being mixed in with the clay. Also, no attempt at identification of the figures.
Regards
Gert
-
I have JSTOR access and have reviewed a few articles about byzantine tokens connected with pilgrimages. I had not appreciated the diversity of what is referred to as stamps and tokens. I have yet to see a reference about this type in particular.
Cw
-
As a belated answer to Echizento: these tokes usually measure about 17-21mm. I recently added one more to my collection. The last type (d) still to go...
True Cross with three human figures; two on either side of cross, one below
20mm; 1.82g; Mitchiner type b, 1065-1066.
Regards
Gert
-
I don't recall where this was from, but I have this article saved....
-
Yesterday, I managed to complete my set of True Cross tokens with Mitchiner's type d. This one is quite large, measuring 20mm in diameter. As can be seen from the composite picture, types b and d are larger in comparison to types a and c. This is also reflected in the examples listed by Mitchiner.
Regards
Gert
-
Congratulations completing the set !!
I think I speak for many here that we'd love to see a plate of the collection......perhaps as a virtual coin tray ?
-
Congrats, that's an impressive set.
-
Hi All;
I can say that i have learned something new with this board: "True Cross" Pilgrim's Tokens
Thanks
Nassif
-
My new token .
15 mm.
-
I thought I would post this here to keep most of the information for this somewhat specialized discussion in a single thread....my apologies in advance if that is not proper protocol....
I finally added a "True Cross" to my collection. I had looked for one for a while and missed out on a few offered specimens. This past weekend I was at a local coin show with a pretty decent representation by ancients dealers. There was a new dealer (well known) in attendance, who had one in his case.
It was attributed as "Mitchiner 1070" but upon closer inspection, two "X"s are readily apparent above the vertical bar of the cross. So it more closely fits the Mitchiner type "c" examples (1067, 68, or 69). The token is 18.47 mm in diameter and weighs 1.61 grams.
-
Congratulations. Yes, you are surely right in correcting that attribution. Just curious: did it come with that weird sales pitch that the Byzantines burnt a piece of the most sacred relic on earth to produce them?
Regards
Gert
-
Thanks Gert.
No, but we talked about them for while and obviously it came up, but I was already aware of that traditional rumor.
He did explain a bit to me about the hoard in Turkey from which many current specimens come from. I believe he called it the "Maker's Hoard" as they were found in a container in the ruins of a building and it is thought by some that it may have been the location of the actual "maker" of the tokens.
Is there anything published anywhere about this hoard?
-
Tiny pieces of the true cross were sent as relics to various churches, some of which still have them. It would not be too surprising if they burned a small piece and mixed the ashes with the clay to make the tokens. I would like to know where that story originates. I have read it many times in sales listings.
-
I would have to disagree with you about that, Joe. Sending pieces of the 'true cross' to various churches to be venerated is quite different from destroying a piece of the true cross. Of all the relics, the true cross was considered the most sacred, and to burn even a piece of this most valuable object in the world would be unconceivable. What's more, by this time, there were ways to 'transport' the sacred power of a relic, or a saint, to an object - by touch or by proximity, so to create a token blessing such as these, there was no necessity to destroy a piece of the relic by burning. Check out Gary Vikan's 'Early Byzantine Pilgrimage Art', which will be worth your time reading.
I have also read this theory only in sales descriptions, and I think it is just uncritically copied from one dealer to the next. Still, I'd like to know the source.
Regards
Gert
-
I just picked up this example today.
It is 20 mm in diameter and weighs 1.68 grams.
It is a type "d", and I attribute it as a "Mitchiner" 1074 or 1075....with preference towards 1074.
-
Congratulations a very nice addition to any collection.
I want one, for my collection, I just have not seen any lately.
-
An example just sold on on another coin site, and in the description was this (emphasis, mine):
Intact with natural find patina and original soil deposits adhering which can easily be removed if required. Much clearer representations on the obverse than usual for the type. From the original find that came from Baldwins’ in London circa 1993.
The original find was purchased by Baldwins in London circa 1993. There were two main types in the find: the type shown here and a smaller group showing piece of a different type showing legend around the cross.An example of the second type is in the British Museum collection. Mitchiner devotes a full page to the examples in his collection.
A dealer once mentioned to me about a hoard having been found in a structure in Turkey which he referred to as the "Maker's Hoard". I wonder if the "find" purchased by Baldwins' is the same as this hoard. Does anyone know if Baldwins' ever documented and/or published anything about their acquisition of this hoard, or perhaps if they included anything in the descriptions when they sold off pieces?
-
Years ago when these first appeared I did some work for a dealer who gave me four complete specimens, three of the larger variety and one smaller. I forgot about them completely until I ran across them the other day in a cabinet I no longer use. All are complete and quite decent as these go. Now the question is how best to pass them on to people who will appreciate them.
-
It will be wonderful if you’ll post pictures of your examples . For the last two years, since this topic was active, I saw just a few new examples offered for sale. The last one in the end of this August , with the same attribution . It has been about a eight years since I started this topic and it seems that no any new information has been found .
Regards,
Vlad
-
I received mine as a wonderful Christmas gift from a trusted mentor and friend. This is the type with three figures—who are they?
Gert makes a lot of sense, but I’d be interested to know if a chemist could safely determine if wood ash is in the mixture.
Gert, are there many ancient sources that discuss “transferring” the sacred power of objects?
-
It could be the three Marys present at the crucifixion.
-
my understanding, which of course should be taken as the gospel word :o, is that they followed good homeopathic practices, in that the mixed the ashes with a set quantity of clay, and the mixed that clay with a greater amount of clay. Just like for gold they mix it with a gallon, and then that gallon with a hundred gallons. I am sure that it is all very exact science ;D
-
Great coin, great gift. Congratulations!
Happy Holidays
Simon
-
I showed a friend who is a priest and he thinks we see three shells on this variety, shells being a symbol for pilgrims. On the type with two, which looks more like people, he said it is likely Mary and John.
I think he might be correct!
-
medieval symbolism differs greatly from symbolism of today. I have not heard of your friends thought shells represent Pilgrims ( I am not doubting, I just have not heard that before.) Shells were used to symbolize heaven, the pearly gates, the shells were an easy way to represent pearls.
I deal with art from the 15th and 16th century on a regular basis. One of my favorite symbols that is commonly used in that time period was the snail, normally seen with the virgin because it was a symbol of purity. Since the snail was Born from the dew. Not a symbol we would use with the Virgin now.
-
Interesting...and very nicely preserved.....example.
I'm not sure those actually represent shells, as if they do, it would represent a new type of True Cross token beyond the generally accepted four major types.
In a message posted on page 1 of this thread displaying the generally accepted major types, the second type illustrated from the top (aka, "Type b") shows some vestigial ornamentation at the bottom of each figure.....not as strong as on Molinari's example, but not just a plain blob either. And just above the plate, an example posted by Gert shows traces of this "ornamentation" also.
Craig
-
He says it comes from St. James, Patron of the Camino, and was later adopted for pilgrims in general.
-
I'll try to photo my specimens, but I am a poor photography indeed.
-
Here are my two.....
-
He says it comes from St. James, Patron of the Camino, and was later adopted for pilgrims in general.
Yes shells are common medieval symbol for pilgrimage, especially St. James (but most probably from a later date than this token)