Interesting ancient coin find... in university library

[Jschulze]

Stories like this make me wonder about the many boxes of ancient coins that are forgotten in libraries and closets around the world.  

Josh

http://www.buffalo.edu/news/releases/2015/03/020.html

[cmcdon0923]

Here's a picture from the linked article.....

[curtislclay]

A good thing the coins were enclosed in frames, I'd say. That made it much more difficult to remove one of them, or replace it by an inferior specimen, if anyone with access ever felt such a temptation!

[cmcdon0923]

If also not for the fact that it may have protected them for the last 40 years, while they were so [sarcasm] lovingly [/sarcasm] cared for by the museum.

[Jim_Clayton]

What scares me is that they are going to 'restore' them. That probably means polish...

[Nemonater]

What's most important is that they wear the proper gloves while handling the cases!   

[JBF]

I imagine that the amount they will appreciate them will depend on how much they fetch at auction.

[Molinari]

A good thing the coins were enclosed in frames, I'd say. That made it much more difficult to remove one of them, or replace it by an inferior specimen, if anyone with access ever felt such a temptation!

A colleague of mine did her undergrad at Cornell and cataloged some of its ancient coin collection with one of her archaeology professors. After doing this for almost an entire academic semester, one day, as she carried out a tray of electrum from Kyzikos, she was stopped by the librarian,  who asked who she was and why she was taking the coins. She had been carrying the trays of loose coins across campus to the archaeology department all semester, and no one had ever said a thing!  She still got to work with the coins, but from that point on they made her stay in the library. (this was in the early eighties, I think)

[BiancasDad]

A good thing the coins were enclosed in frames, I'd say. That made it much more difficult to remove one of them, or replace it by an inferior specimen, if anyone with access ever felt such a temptation!

A colleague of mine did her undergrad at Cornell and cataloged some of its ancient coin collection with one of her archaeology professors. After doing this for almost an entire academic semester, one day, as she carried out a tray of electrum from Kyzikos, she was stopped by the librarian,  who asked who she was and why she was taking the coins. She had been carrying the trays of loose coins across campus to the archaeology department all semester, and no one had ever said a thing!  She still got to work with the coins, but from that point on they made her stay in the library. (this was in the early eighties, I think)

Interesting, I was doing my undergrad work at Cornell as well from 84 to 88' in electrical engiNERDing but had no concept of ancients yet. I was too busy hoarding Morgan dollars for 10 bucks a pop back then.

The libraries were impressive!

[Jay GT4]

Still thinking of donating your coins to a university?    Another reason to encourage the hobby.  For 40 years nobody Studied, published or handled them...

[stlnats]

What scares me is that they are going to 'restore' them. That probably means polish...

+1

Seems like a wonderful group of coins and clearly best if these folks leave them alone.  And the notion that 40-50 coins is going to take a while to work up (and justifies a graduate level course) suggests a lack of familiarity with the coins.  It would be great if these were properly id'd and published, but IMHO these guys are probably not the best long term stewards of the coins and it would probably be best to just sell the things (that way they get automatically and competently published) and plow the money into an area of strength/competence for the library.

[jmuona]

This thread was brought to my attention by two friends.
The Otho shown is certainly very rare if not unique, and I am quite confident it is not a genuine coin. It shares the general feel, unusual letters and strange (even though not in the same way) Secvritas with a coin shown to me in NAC London offices years ago.  I think that one had the otherwise unheard of "PP" on reverse as well. Very likely an old forgery, possibly even an ancient one. The Grand Old Man of NAC suggested it might be from another mint, Spain perhaps, but I do not think this is a real possibility.
s.
Jyrki Muona
P.S.
As a museum professional in biology I am constantly amazed by the fact that some people always want to point out how museums somehow do not take care of the things they have.

[Carausius]

A good thing the coins were enclosed in frames, I'd say. That made it much more difficult to remove one of them, or replace it by an inferior specimen, if anyone with access ever felt such a temptation!

A colleague of mine did her undergrad at Cornell and cataloged some of its ancient coin collection with one of her archaeology professors. After doing this for almost an entire academic semester, one day, as she carried out a tray of electrum from Kyzikos, she was stopped by the librarian,  who asked who she was and why she was taking the coins. She had been carrying the trays of loose coins across campus to the archaeology department all semester, and no one had ever said a thing!  She still got to work with the coins, but from that point on they made her stay in the library. (this was in the early eighties, I think)

Interesting, I was doing my undergrad work at Cornell as well from 84 to 88' in electrical engiNERDing but had no concept of ancients yet.

I was there too, about the same time.  I collected ancients then, yet I knew nothing about any University coin collection. It was certainly not something they advertised. I remember searching the card catalogues at the Uris and Olin libraries hoping to find a set of RIC, but found only a few general books on Roman coins. I bet they have much more now. 

[Molinari]

It's surprising they didn't have a larger collection of numismatic books.  Judging by her description of the Greek and Roman gold she handled, they have a fairly diverse and impressive collection. Although I guess it could have all come from one rich alumnus and remained untouched until she came along, like the coins that started this thread. I'll have to ask her what years she was there.

[Jschulze]

"P.S.
As a museum professional in biology I am constantly amazed by the fact that some people always want to point out how museums somehow do not take care of the things they have."

I personally wasn't posting this story suggesting that institutions do not take care of the things they have. I was using this as an example of the fun idea that there are amazing treasures forgotten and hiding on dusty shelves and in closets all over the world. Discoveries can be made in places as close as your local library or in gramma's old hat boxes.

I see stories of new species of dinosaur being discovered in bins of bones collected 100 years ago and historical letters showing up out of the blue in old misfiled folders. It's a fun idea that if you look, you just may be surprised!

Josh

[Carausius]

It's surprising they didn't have a larger collection of numismatic books.  Judging by her description of the Greek and Roman gold she handled, they have a fairly diverse and impressive collection. Although I guess it could have all come from one rich alumnus and remained untouched until she came along, like the coins that started this thread. I'll have to ask her what years she was there.

It's even more surprising when you consider the library system, at the time, housed millions of books. Yet, the selection of general books on Roman coins that I found was probably sufficient for an undergraduate archaeology student with a passing interest. It was certainly not sufficient for a numismatic specialist, but I was not aware of any professors at the school that specialized in or taught numismatics at that time.  I never did search for books on ancient Greek coins (I was not yet collecting them), so I cannot say whether there may have been a better selection of books on ancient Greek coins.

[Meepzorp]

A good thing the coins were enclosed in frames, I'd say. That made it much more difficult to remove one of them, or replace it by an inferior specimen, if anyone with access ever felt such a temptation!

Hi folks,

I was thinking the same thing, especially considering the fact that they were untouched (and pretty much forgotten about) for 40 years. Anyone could have stolen some/all of them or "played switch", as Curtis pointed out.

Meepzorp

[Meepzorp]

A good thing the coins were enclosed in frames, I'd say. That made it much more difficult to remove one of them, or replace it by an inferior specimen, if anyone with access ever felt such a temptation!

A colleague of mine did her undergrad at Cornell and cataloged some of its ancient coin collection with one of her archaeology professors. After doing this for almost an entire academic semester, one day, as she carried out a tray of electrum from Kyzikos, she was stopped by the librarian,  who asked who she was and why she was taking the coins. She had been carrying the trays of loose coins across campus to the archaeology department all semester, and no one had ever said a thing!  She still got to work with the coins, but from that point on they made her stay in the library. (this was in the early eighties, I think)

Interesting, I was doing my undergrad work at Cornell as well from 84 to 88' in electrical engiNERDing but had no concept of ancients yet.

I was there too, about the same time.  I collected ancients then, yet I knew nothing about any University coin collection. It was certainly not something they advertised. I remember searching the card catalogues at the Uris and Olin libraries hoping to find a set of RIC, but found only a few general books on Roman coins. I bet they have much more now. 

Hi folks,

This is interesting. My college undergraduate years were 1985-1989. And I wanted to go to Cornell. That was my first choice. I was accepted at Cornell and offered a partial scholarship. But I was offered a full-tuition (Presidential) scholarship at a second-tier university, and my parents forced me to go there against my will. They refused to pay for Cornell, despite the fact that I had won a partial scholarship to attend that university. I still went away to college, but it wasn't as far as Cornell.

I majored in physics and engineering as an undergraduate. Yes, I was a nerd too. So, if I had gone to Cornell, I may have bumped into BiancasDad (who appears to be one year older than me) and maybe Carausius too. I had no concept of ancients at that time either. At that point in my life, I was interested in computers, astronomy, driving my Mustang GT, and (unsuccessfully) pursuing girls.

Meepzorp

[Meepzorp]

What scares me is that they are going to 'restore' them. That probably means polish...

+1

Seems like a wonderful group of coins and clearly best if these folks leave them alone.  And the notion that 40-50 coins is going to take a while to work up (and justifies a graduate level course) suggests a lack of familiarity with the coins.  It would be great if these were properly id'd and published, but IMHO these guys are probably not the best long term stewards of the coins and it would probably be best to just sell the things (that way they get automatically and competently published) and plow the money into an area of strength/competence for the library.

Hi folks,

I agree. It seems to me that these people don't know what they are doing.

Rather than "restoring" (ruining) them, they should sell them.

Meepzorp

[Meepzorp]

Still thinking of donating your coins to a university?   Another reason to encourage the hobby.  For 40 years nobody Studied, published or handled them...

Hi folks,

You could donate your coins to a university with pre-conditions.

One of those pre-conditions could be to make sure that your coins are properly cared for and/or displayed. This can be accomplished in one of those large, fancy, research-type libraries that are typically found on the campuses of major universities.

I was a graduate student at the University of Michigan in 1989-1990, pursuing a master's degree in aerospace engineering. They had at least one of those types of libraries. On the university's north campus (which was just north of downtown Ann Arbor), there was a beautiful library. I think it was called the Ford Library. A structure like that would be a good environment for an ancient coin display.

Meepzorp

[jmuona]

"P.S.
As a museum professional in biology I am constantly amazed by the fact that some people always want to point out how museums somehow do not take care of the things they have."

I personally wasn't posting this story suggesting that institutions do not take care of the things they have. I was using this as an example of the fun idea that there are amazing treasures forgotten and hiding on dusty shelves and in closets all over the world. Discoveries can be made in places as close as your local library or in gramma's old hat boxes.

I see stories of new species of dinosaur being discovered in bins of bones collected 100 years ago and historical letters showing up out of the blue in old misfiled folders. It's a fun idea that if you look, you just may be surprised!

Josh

Dear Josh,
I actually deleted the P.S. and did not realize I had sent it already. It was a late night and I was very tired having worked hard, among others taking care of the 10 million insect specimens we have in the museum I work in.
For me the important thing here is that the Otho is not a genuine Rome mint coin and this may apply to the others as well. Perhaps we could get comments about that as well?
s.
Jyrki

[Jschulze]

Your work sounds fascinating Jyrki! I'd like to check it out if you'd share a link!

However, we are here for the coins. I'd be interested as well in responses to your thoughts. Are there known examples of this coin? Are you suggesting ancient imitation or modern reproduction? Also what other coins draw your interest?

Josh

[jmuona]

Hi,
first, all my publicly available papers  can be obtained from Rsearch Gate as pdfs. As to the main Otho things, the one with Matthew Ponting and Kevin Butcher is in Forum's resource library, the Otho die-study will be there once Joe has the opportunity to put it there. I cannot figure out how to do it and he does have some other things in mind as well - like how to earn his living!
I suspect the coin in question - and the one I saw in NAC London office - are 19th Century forgeries meant to decieve collectors. As I have not had this in hand, I cannot be sure, but it is definitely different from all the 120+ aurei of Otho I have seen images of. Personally I have handled some 40 of those. Aurei and denarii of the time were minted with the same dies, so not to have a single one with "PP" on them after seeing 1700 is suspicious already and combining that with the "new"modified SECVRITAS reverse - why would she have cornucopia - is a bit too much already. There are even other factors to consider.
One can of course postulate an additional mint - this is what the eminent Mr. Russo did - but there is no other evidence for this and historically speaking the location could only be in the East and that is out of question. The obverse is very much Roman, the die unknown previously.
In my view the Nero looks a bit off as well, the Greeks I am not qualified to comment upon.
s.
Jyrki Muona

[Joe Sermarini]

Sorry Jyrki, I thought I had already added the die study to NumisWiki.  I do have a lot on my mind because earning a living in this business is quite a struggle these days.   But, it only took about two minutes for me to do.  If I am neglecting something, please do not hesitate to remind me. Thanks!

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Denarii%20of%20Otho

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Muona%20Otho