Tiberius II Constantine solidi fakes at major auction house - what can one do?

[byzcoll]

Hi,

a major German auction house has several solidi of Tiberius II Constantine (Sear 422) in its catalog for an upcoming auction. One (top two pictures, see below) is the known Lipanoff fake; five more of them (one example given below) are from the same obverse die, which seems to have been reworked to yield a different annular boarder, but a reverse die with a better style. These new versions have been posted by me in the fake reports and have also been discussed in an earlier thread.

PROBLEM: I have written an e-mail to Dr. M at the auction house and after receiving no answer I haver called his partner Mr. G on the phone to explain the problem. He told me that Dr. M is away skiing and thanked me to alert him in this matter. NOW, the "classical" Lipanoff has been withdrawn from auction, but the five specimens of the new version have been not. I only can assume that the auction house still thinks that these solidi are genuine, although I believe the evidence is as strong as can be that they are fakes, very very good fakes.

SO, what can one do?

byzcoll

[byzcoll]

Two more specimens from that auction:

[byzcoll]

And the remaining two coins. All are offered side by side in the catalog; one cannot miss it.

byzcoll

[Joe Sermarini]

Damn.  They fixed the border.  That was the quickest give away. 

[Hydatius]

Unfortunately there's very little you can do. Did you send them all the photographic evidence and an explanation? In my experience, when they (i.e. those particular gentlemen) have the evidence they pull the coins pretty quickly. If they don't, you've done your job and that's all anyone can ask of you (or you can ask of yourself).

  Richard

[byzcoll]

Yes, I have explained the problem to the auction house in some detail and the photos they posted in their catalog contain all the evidence. I think they just "don't get it". I am curious how the auction will go.

byzcoll

[Paul D3]

Damn.  They fixed the border.  That was the quickest give away. 

Iwonder if we should discuss details on what gives fakes away on these boards since the fakers can read them, and fix accordingly. Would it be better to just post the image in the fake gallery and only discuss the details via private messages and emails?

[mwilson603]

Iwonder if we should discuss details on what gives fakes away on these boards since the fakers can read them, and fix accordingly. Would it be better to just post the image in the fake gallery and only discuss the details via private messages and emails?

That would make it very difficult for the rest of us to know what we should be avoiding Paul.  Quite a BIG flaw in the plan 
regards
Mark

[Paul D3]

[/quote]
That would make it very difficult for the rest of us to know what we should be avoiding Paul.  Quite a BIG flaw in the plan 
regards
Mark
[/quote]

It would make it much harder and slower for sure, but if the pic only was posted, those whith questions on "why" could message the one who posted the fake pic. If you look at Sear's "Byzantine Coins and Their Values" He illistrates  known fakes in the appendix and states that he refrains from discussing what gives them away for just my reasons. Wayne Sales in his book on fakes takes exactly the same tack.

[mwilson603]

It would make it much harder and slower for sure, but if the pic only was posted, those whith questions on "why" could message the one who posted the fake pic. If you look at Sear's "Byzantine Coins and Their Values" He illistrates  known fakes in the appendix and states that he refrains from discussing what gives them away for just my reasons. Wayne Sales in his book on fakes takes exactly the same tack.

Yes, but then everytime a variation on that fake came out, different aging techniques, different flans, different wear, different patina etc, the chance of some poor soul getting fleeced becomes greater because it won't look like the one posted.  By the time the new variation gets posted it will be too late for some. 
I much prefer the fact that by announcing the reasons the fake has been uncovered means that any fake producer has to change their dies, production methods etc.  That way it causes them the most cost and makes their potential victims list shorter.
regards
Mark

[snorkelpaleis]

Iwonder if we should discuss details on what gives fakes away on these boards since the fakers can read them, and fix accordingly. Would it be better to just post the image in the fake gallery and only discuss the details via private messages and emails?

or maybe block out fakers with the rule that you have to have 50 or more posts to read the fake section.

[Galaxy]

or maybe block out fakers with the rule that you have to have 50 or more posts to read the fake section.
[/quote]

...and how well would that have worked out for you when you were a new collector, worried about how to tell if a coin was real or not? I think a tactic like that would dry up the collector groups eventually through making the hobby less accessible.

[jlh]

Having enlarged and looked at the obverses, and disregarding poorly struck areas, it seems to me that no two of these obverses are from identical dies.

For example, on 2449, one side of the neckline is a smooth line while on all the others both sides are rows of dots.  And of 2450, the tail of the legend, ANT PP AVG, is placed differently.  Differences among the other coins are harder to describe.

The auction house presumably knows the coins differ, and cannot spend the time to respond in detail to every one who second-guesses their expertise.  However, they still should pull the Lipanoff fake, and respond politely to a potential customer.

jlh

[Joe Sermarini]

jlh, I think you are, perhaps, not aware how different two different coins struck with the same dies can appear to be. 

[Nebukadnezar]

In the online cataloge on the hompage of the auction house are pics in higher resolution.

[Nebukadnezar]

more pics.

[Nebukadnezar]

more pictures.

[Hydatius]

The dies are easier to compare if you put obverses and obverses together, esp in the same photo.

Richard

[byzcoll]

So, there we are: The hammer price for these coins has just been published:

A total of EUR 1925 (ca. $ 2600).

More revenue for the forgers and more money to produce ever better fakes.

byzcoll

[byzcoll]

UPDATE:

This week (Oktober 2010) I went to Switzerland to examine a coin of this "new" type at a very well known "high-end" auction house, because I have been really curious about this (and of course also other coins). In hand it looked absolutely perfect, only one of the die rust areas had a little bit of a suspicious appearance. Compared to another mint state Tiberius solidus from different dies there was no visible difference in fabric, edge, striking technology or anything. The coin was indistinguishable from originals. I have discussed the matter with the experts at the auction house and they suggest that all these "new" coins from the same pair of dies are originals from a hoard.

Well, after having handeled a specimen of the series, I think one cannot condemn those coins by style or appearance, just the connection to the Lipanoff obverse, which is at the same stage of die rust is unfortunate. Furthermore I have seen other solidi with the Lipanoff obverse at an earlier stage of die rust in the databases. The possibility that the Lipanoff fakes are made from a die transfer from a coin with the same obverse at the same stage of wear is quite high, with the strange border of the well-known fakes having been added to the die after the transfer.

byzcoll

[Joe Sermarini]

I am fairly certain that Lipanoff dies are engraved by hand.  I believe most are not close enough to the originals to be any sort of transfer dies. 

[spinkpa]

So maybe these other die matched solidi are hoard originals; It does seem remarkable that they should have stayed together to suddenly appear at a European auction house (apparently) in conjunction with the known Lipanoff relative.