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Author Topic: How Much is a Shekel?  (Read 26763 times)

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Offline J wollner

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How Much is a Shekel?
« on: November 15, 2009, 12:00:58 am »
I would hope someone can help me out. It is the fact that ancient Shekels, Tyre as well as the Shekels of the Jewish wars have a denomination of four Denarious, having an average of 14 grams. In Tosefta (Baba Metzieh 3.10, Talmud 52) the shekel is mentioned as having only two denarious. Did the sages erred on something even a child would know? A shekel is four denarious that's a fact I see with my own eyes today. There must be a better answer.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: How Much is a Shekel?
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2009, 04:44:32 am »
There's no doubt whatsoever that a shekel is a tetradrachm, worth four drachms. The drachm was equivalent to the denarius. The Talmud is a collection of later writings, from the 3rd Century AD onward. I don't have a copy, and can't check exactly what it says, but from what you say, it sounds as though whoever wrote the passage in question was working on the basis of wrong information.

Scholars disagree about, for instance, how accurate the Mishnah (2nd Century) is regarding the period before the destruction of the Temple, but it's clear that the Talmud doesn't always get it right, and this is a case in point. There had been changes in the monetary standard, and it also gets the value of the prutah wrong.
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zeid

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Re: How Much is a Shekel?
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2009, 11:13:24 am »
Joel,

Is it possible for you that you translate the original text from Hebrew to English ?
and Do you have other References for Tyrian Shekels from Talmud ?

Regards

Offline J wollner

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Re: How Much is a Shekel?
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2009, 11:17:25 am »
The shekel is a tetradachm no doubt about it. The Tosefta is a work alongside the Mishna, final redaction around 200 CE, with big parts already existed before the Temple's destruction. I'd agree the Talmud (500 CE) has many historical fact inaccurate and overstated, but I would challenge you on the Mishna and Tosefta. They are neat and careful works. Hard to take there is such a blatant error.

Offline J wollner

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Re: How Much is a Shekel?
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2009, 11:59:44 am »
Joel,

Is it possible for you that you translate the original text from Hebrew to English ?
and Do you have other References for Tyrian Shekels from Talmud ?

Regards

The Tosefta goes about the various laws on how long a coin can be used "as is" when it's worn and is less worth. It Says: A Sela (tetradrachm) can be used until it gets down to a shekel, a dinar until it gets to a quarter shekel. More then that the coin should be cut because it can fool others that it's more than it appears since the original shape is bigger.

Tyre shekel is mentioned in Tosefta Kesubet 12,14: Silver when mentioned in the Torah is Tyre silver. What is Tyre silver it is a Jerusalemite.


zeid

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Re: How Much is a Shekel?
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2009, 12:23:53 pm »
Quote
The Tosefta goes about the various laws on how long a coin can be used "as is" when it's worn and is less worth

I think this does make some  sense,

According to Jacob Neusner a shekel is usually weighing between a quater and a half an ounce.
so I think its price may have varried according to the concentration of silver in it.

 Original Tyrian shekels  worthed 4 drachms,Maybe worn-out Tyrian shekels or barberous Herodian imitations with 50% of silver concentration  worthed two drachms or so.

But what about the other usage for smaller denominations in Tosefta ?
Kindly can  you clarify for us its ancient usage in Agriculture?


Isaar= A coin,valued at 1/48 of Shekel

Maah= A coin ,valued at 1/10 of a Shekel

Pondion=1/24 of a Shekel

Dupondium=1/24 of a Shekel

Zuz=A coin,valued at a Dinar,that is one half of a Shekel

Maneh= A Weight of Gold or Silver ,Equal to fifty Shekels

Prutah =?

Lepton=?



Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: How Much is a Shekel?
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2009, 04:58:51 pm »
The Tosefta doesn't appear to be online unfortunately. I have the Mishnah in English, but that's all.
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Offline Aarmale

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Re: How Much is a Shekel?
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2009, 05:25:25 pm »
For online Tosefta go to... http://www.toseftaonline.org/!

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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: How Much is a Shekel?
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2009, 05:51:54 pm »
Thanks. I've bookmarked it.
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Offline J wollner

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Re: How Much is a Shekel?
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2009, 03:58:28 pm »
Hi all. I'm happy I found the answer to my problem in Meshorer's book TJC page 138 quoted below:

"It is iteresting to mention that this denominatin - didrachms - two dinars or half a tetradrachm, is termed a "shekel" in documents from the time of Bar Kochba. On the basis of many finds of Cappododian diadrachms in hoards from the time of the Bar Kochba war, I then suggested that the term "shekel" which had gone out of use for more than 50 years, was now reinstituten and applied to a coin whose value was in  effect less than half that of the original shekel. such is the faith of coins' names: they ramble from period to period... Document no 46 from the Cave of Letters in Nahal Hever states: "Ten silver dinars which are two selas [tetradrachms] and one shekel".. from thhis text it is clear that the shekel was half a tetradrachm"

zeid

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Re: How Much is a Shekel?
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2009, 12:51:36 pm »
This will only mean that the historical silver "Shekel" when mentioned in The Babylonian Talmud and The Tosefta
will only mean a  didrachms,which leads to one conclusion.

 the NT from one side and the two other Judean sources are speaking about 2 different "Shekels"and Not a matter of different values.

 
Quote
Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Baba Bathra

Folio 9a


When the Temple stood, a man used to bring his shekel and so make atonement. Now that the Temple no longer stands, if they give for charity, well and good, and if not, the heathens will come and take from them forcibly.

Offline Alex M2

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Re: How Much is a Shekel?
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2009, 03:50:41 pm »
So was Jesus betrayed by Judas for 30 shekels or 15 (as in 30 half shekels)? I think I recall reading that a certain slave was bought for 11 shekels in the first century. Perhaps 30 half shekels 'fits the bill' so to speak?
Alex
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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: How Much is a Shekel?
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2009, 04:30:17 pm »
Since Matthew doesn't name the coin involved, we don't know how many shekels the money was worth!
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zeid

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Re: How Much is a Shekel?
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2009, 12:03:10 pm »
I remember we made a long debate about the actual value of the thirty piece of silver mentioned in the NT priviously,and I assumed that  if the story was "historical", it  should have been reflecting  30 Tyrian shekels from the temple treasury.
which means a sufficient or reasonable amount of money to buy a small piece of land in the vicinity of the Temple mount (Akeldama field).
30 Tyrian shekel (120 Drachms) at time of the historical Jesus  was a good amount of money compared to the (50 Drachms=25 half shekels) Herod the Great promissed his soldiers in case he survived his final illness-According to Josephus.

I guess what was mentioned "Later" in The Babylonian Talmud should  uncover the true nature of Matthews' thirty piece of silver:

The Babylonian Talmud -Tractate Baba Kamma

Folio 43a

R. Simeon b. Lakish said: Where an ox killed a slave without purposing to do so, there would be exemption from the payment of thirty shekels, since it is written, He shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned,15  [implying that] where the ox would be liable to be stoned the owner is to pay thirty shekels, but where the ox would not be liable to be stoned.


Regards

Offline Danny S. Jones

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Re: How Much is a Shekel?
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2009, 01:49:22 pm »
So was Jesus betrayed by Judas for 30 shekels or 15 (as in 30 half shekels)? I think I recall reading that a certain slave was bought for 11 shekels in the first century. Perhaps 30 half shekels 'fits the bill' so to speak?

According to Meshorer, which was quoted earlier by Joel W, the later "shekel" which was equivalent to the didrachm was a coin that existed a century after the story of Judas and the crucifixion (in documents from the Bar Kochba revolt, 132–136).

This leads me to believe that the 30 "pieces of silver" mentioned in the New Testament story of Judas were, if not the very Tyrian coins of traditional thought, at least equivalent in value to the tetradrachm widely circulated at the time. I'll have to find the source quote again, but I remember reading also that there were several other (though not very common) tetradrachms in circulation at the same time of equivalent silver content and purity as the Tyrian shekel, and may also have been accepted at the temple.

Regards,
Danny

Offline Alex M2

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Re: How Much is a Shekel?
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2009, 02:31:16 pm »
I believe the tetradrachms you're referring to Danny, are of Ptolemaic and Athenian origin. However, I'm not sure how well circulated they were in the first century Judaea as 'Temple coin' (though you're right in that the Athenian coins had an impact and traveled quite extensively as Philistio-Gaza types are often crude representations of Athenian denominations). Hoard evidence would be best to examine for queries on circulation and perhaps Salem could help us with his knowledge there. In regards to accepted silver purity, I'm not sure.
On another note, and going back to the 30 half shekel or 30 shekel discussion, whole shekels were traded in before the temple to moneychangers who would convert the coin into half shekels. Peter would have had to pay a 'kolbonot', to my understanding (2 prutot), to exchange his shekel into two acceptable half shekels to pay the tax for Christ and himself. I don't think he was able to present the whole shekel upfront to cover the two of them. If this is so, then would the physical temple treasury consist largely of half shekels? And thus, Judas would be paid in like denomination?
Alex
p.s. apart from this springtime tax, does anyone know of other income to the temple?
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zeid

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Re: How Much is a Shekel?
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2009, 09:06:04 pm »
and going back to the 30 half shekel or 30 shekel discussion, whole shekels were traded in before the temple to moneychangers who would convert the coin into half shekels. Peter would have had to pay a 'kolbonot', to my understanding (2 prutot), to exchange his shekel into two acceptable half shekels to pay the tax for Christ and himself. I don't think he was able to present the whole shekel upfront to cover the two of them. If this is so, then would the physical temple treasury consist largely of half shekels? And thus, Judas would be paid in like denomination?
Alex
p.s. apart from this springtime tax, does anyone know of other income to the temple?


At time of the historical Jesus, there was a shared profit between the money changers from one side and the temple treasury from the other,concerning the actual net profit of the Jerusalem Temple treasury you have to deduct the approximate10% exchange rate on every half Tyrian shekel.


According to this article The money-changers made a statutory fixed charge of a Maah,  on every half-shekel. This was called ((qolbon)),taking into consideration
that the (Maah)=1/10 of a Shekel.

http://home.clara.net/arlev/matt079.htm#1

But if a person tendered a Sela (a four-denar piece, in value two half-shekels of the Sanctuary or two Galilean shekels), he had to pay double qolbon; one for his half-shekel of tribute-money, the other for his change’

Other resourses for taxation at time of Jesus were the notoroius Tithe which include a 10% tax on wide range of things...

beside the "tithe" there was "The Bikkurim" or First fruits "tax"of the early- repining fruits
which the Israelite farmers must bring as an offering to the Temple priests in Jerusalem.

According to the Babylonian Telmud,I found  the "Tithe" system was a little bit complicated for one to fully comprehend it.

Quote

Baba Mezi'a 52b

This [the Mishnah] supports Hezekiah, for Hezekiah said: When he comes to exchange it, he must exchange it as its intrinsic value; if he comes to redeem therewith, he estimates it at a proper [coin].15  What does he mean?16 — He means this: Though when he comes to exchange it, he exchanges it at its present value,17  yet when he redeems [second tithe] therewith, he may estimate it as a good [coin].18  Shall we say that Hezekiah holds that the second tithe may be treated disparagingly?19  But did not Hezekiah say: With respect to second tithe [produce] worth less than a perutah, one may declare, 'It, together with its fifth,20  is redeemed with the first money [of redemption];'21  because it is impossible for a person to calculate his money exactly!22  — What is meant by 'a proper [coin]'? On the basis of the proper value [of the coin], because it [the second tithe] may not be lightly treated in two respects.23

The [above] text stated: 'Hezekiah said: With respect to second tithe [produce] worth less than a perutah, one may declare, "It, together with its fifth, is redeemed by the first money [of redemption];" because it is impossible for a person to calculate his money exactly.' An objection is raised: For terumah and the first fruits24  one is liable to death and [the addition of] a fifth;25

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: How Much is a Shekel?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2009, 02:52:28 pm »
The Temple would have had all sorts of coin in its treasury. It doubled up, like many great temples, as a sort of central bank. They took whatever, and changed it for shekels or half shekels.

The shekel was a special coin (or token) which uniquely fulfilled the legal requirement that the Temple tax be paid in pure silver. That's why the common assumption that Judas was paid in shekels makes no sense. Why would they pay a common informer in the 'special' coinage, with its higher intrinsic value, rather that ordinary trade coin?
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Offline J wollner

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Re: How Much is a Shekel?
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2009, 04:19:02 pm »
The Tyre Shekels were the most used silver coin in Judea at the time , so it does makes sense the 30 pieces were Tyre Shekels. It is true though the existence and production of Tyre shekels were for the sole purpose of the Temple Tax, otherwise the Tyre shekels made of 95% silver would have been forced out of circulation. Gresham's law would have taken effect and the Roman coins of 80% siver would have forced out the Tyre shekels of the market. After the destruction of the temple shekels were a coin of the past and for some reason the diadrachm became called Shekel.


 

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: How Much is a Shekel?
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2009, 06:18:33 pm »
They were used a lot because every Jewish man had to pay the half shekel Temple tax every year, and had to pay it in that one currency. That adds up to a lot of shekels.

Judea was relatively poor, with no internal sources of silver, so most people probably didn't use silver coins very much apart from that. Remember the stories about the widow with nothing but two small copper coins, and the woman who searched the whole house for a lost silver coin,and threw a party when she found it? It's not good enough to say 'It was a common coin therefore they paid Judas with it'. You have to look at what it was and what it was used for.

The only mention of the payment is in Matthew, who says 'oi de esthsan auvtw triakonta avrguria', 'They paid him thirty silver'. The only other place in the New Testament where 'arguria' is used is in Matthew (he seems to like the word) 25:27, where it clearly means 'money'. The word is used four times in the Septuagint, and only one of those has any possible connection with shekels. Zechariah 11:12 is often translated as referring to 'Thirty shekels of silver'. It may well be where Matthew got his inspiration from, since he's virtually quoting it, but unfortunately shekels are not mentioned in either the Hebrew or the Septuagint, so they're something the translator has added. It's not in the old translations as far as I can see, and makes its appearance in Victorian times. I'm normally not in favour of using the King James version, but it does sometimes get it right!

It's commonly asserted that the coins were shekels, but nobody that I can discover has come up with anything to back it up at all.
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zeid

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Re: How Much is a Shekel?
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2009, 10:06:53 am »
In my humble opinion we can question the historicity  of Judas' bribe itself,But it is not logical to question Matthews intentions about  the true nature of the silver coins themselves.

I assume Matthew's symbolism was very clear in showing the true nature of those notorious silver coins:

Matthew 27 (King James Version):

 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.

First proof:

1-Judas brought the silver coins back to their original source=The Temple

2-The Cheif Priest only objection to retain the silver coins  back to the Treasury was that they  became "stigmatized" by human death.


the second proof was  again from Matthew (Greek Version),According to Matthew, The Silver coins were used again as bribes by Jewish priests:


Matthew 28:12

καὶ συναχθέντες μετὰ τῶν πρεσβυτέρων συμβούλιον τε λαβόντες ἀργύρια ἱκανὰ ἔδωκαν τοῖς στρατιώταις

ἀργύρια arguria = silver pieces

The third proof was from the Babylonian Telmud:

Matthew as a pious judeo-christian wanted to portrai (Judas) status as a "Slave" inferior  person in the eyes of other Jews.

the Babylonian Telmud compensation for slave soul is fixed at thirty shekels ,as I quoted priviously.



Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: How Much is a Shekel?
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2009, 04:24:52 pm »
There was no law against putting other coins into the treasury, merely against using them to pay the Temple tax. Don't forget the poor woman in Mark 1:41-2, who puts her two lepta into the treasury.
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Offline Danny S. Jones

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Re: How Much is a Shekel?
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2009, 04:08:12 am »
...whole shekels were traded in before the temple to moneychangers who would convert the coin into half shekels. Peter would have had to pay a 'kolbonot', to my understanding (2 prutot), to exchange his shekel into two acceptable half shekels to pay the tax for Christ and himself. I don't think he was able to present the whole shekel upfront to cover the two of them.

Only the half shekel coin and not a full shekel could be used to pay the temple tax? I've never heard that before. According to the Biblical story, why couldn't Peter take the shekel he found in the fish's mouth to pay for himself and Jesus? Can you site references to support this?

Danny

Offline cmcdon0923

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Re: How Much is a Shekel?
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2009, 11:28:27 am »
Quote
Only the half shekel coin and not a full shekel could be used to pay the temple tax? I've never heard that before. According to the Biblical story, why couldn't Peter take the shekel he found in the fish's mouth to pay for himself and Jesus? Can you site references to support this?

I too was a bit surprised by this.  Tyrian half shekels are significantly scarcer than their full shekel counterparts.  One could logically assume that if every male had to pay in the half shekel denomination, even if there were multiple males of age in a household, that the half shekel denomination coins would vastly outnumber their full denomination counterparts.

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Re: How Much is a Shekel?
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2009, 05:47:55 pm »
A payment of a half-shekel for one person, according to the Mishnah (I don't have the reference) was subject to a commission of between 4 and 8 percent. A payment of a full shekel for two people was not. A hoard of 3400 shekels, 1000 half-shekels, and 160 Augustus denarii was found on Mount Carmel in 1960. As the Temple tax was the only known use for shekels, it's assumed that this was a tax shipment; Jews everywhere were keen to pay it, though it was only legally binding in Judea. The last coins in the hoard to be minted are shekels of 53 AD.

The preponderance of full shekels will be due to the commission on half-shekels, while the denarii make up a commission of exactly 8% on the half-shekels. According to the Mishnah (and again I don't have the reference), Nero's debased denarii were not acceptable to the Temple treasury, while the Augustus coins were.

http://israelvisit.co.il/beged-ivri/shekel/teachings/kadman.htm
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