Greek Silver Tetra Coin AntiochVII (real or not?)

[epmunt]

Hello,

I 've just got this coin, but I am not sure it is genuine or not. Please give me advice.

[epmunt]

Diameter: 1 1/2 inches.

Weight: 16.4 gm .

[slokind]

Check the Freeman & Sear MailBid 13 just closed, where you will find numerous of him from various mints, not looking much like the Antiochene ones.  You might find a parallel there.  I don't LIKE your tet, but it doesn't exactly look modern, either.  Pat L.

[Howard Cole]

I don't like it either.  I also believe it to be a cast.  There are raise bumps of metal on it, like the two bumps below the eye, but also in many other places.  Also I have seen castings with the discoloration that this has around the letters and devices.  These areas are too hard to clean and make it look like silver.

[epmunt]

Thanks, it dosen't seems like cast. But it really looks soft. I still have no idea.

[epmunt]

these photo maybe better.

[Howard Cole]

Without the coin in hand so that I can look at it carefully under a manifying glass, I can't be certain it is a real coin or a fake.  It does have the appearance of some Chinese pressure cast coins that I have seen, with the discoloration in the letters and devices.  I also still see bumps of metal (at least I think they are bumps) that would indicate it is a cast coin.

[epmunt]

Hello, Thanks for your reply. discoloration is because of I used flash while taking pictures.
I don't think it is Chinese die casting fake, but it is new for me. Do you have some samples? photos for sharing?

actually this coin is related with EFTIS. ah....

[epmunt]

Thanks to all for taking the time to look this one over!

[bigron]

I know you have to be carefull of the coins you buy,.But if you worried about every coin you buy , You would never buy anything.

The hazelmere forger , who forged gold staters got away with it for years, untill the advent of metal detectors, & genuine staters were unearthed,  someone noticed that the engraving was ragged on the fakes,as opposed to smooth continuous engraving on the dug ups.

How many collectors have got these in there cabinet.

[slokind]

Yes, and to endorse what BigRon just said, I'll post the one I got as a Newbie myself.  Not very expensive, not a steal quite, it looked OK and, in hand, it still looks OK.  Your portrait will have had the same prototype portrait as mine.  So I'll post it.  I still am no expert in Seleucid tetradrachms, so here it is.  This is just in a flatbed scan.
Pat L.
P.S. Here are my old accession notes: 16 V 00  AR tetradrachm, minted at Antioch.  Antiochos VII Euergetes (Sidetes) of Seleucid Kingdom.  Rev. Athena stg. l. holding Nike, spear, and shield (with Medusa?), perhaps the statue of Athena at Side.  See Davis & Kraay, no. 107.  Morkholm, no. 633, which is Tyre mint.  Sear GCV 7091-2.  BASILEOS  ANTIOCHOV at r. of Athena; EVERGETOV and monogram over A to l. of Athena, so this has a different monogram from Sear's two examples.  Davis&Kraay say that their no. 107 was minted at Antioch, and this portrait is very close in style.

det 1 Head of gorgoneion on shield
det 2 part of face of Antiochos VII, esp. the eye
det 3 scratches in the field, probably what reduced its price, together with ding at bridge of nose
These details are from the later digital photo.
Always take large files for original digital photos.  Get an external pocket drive or flash cards or use CD if you're short on space.

[epmunt]

Hello slokind,

Thanks for your scan, your coin is correct. Comparing the coin from EFTIS, it make's me 100% sure that EFTIS's coin is a copy. I still have no clue how his coins were made, I am for sure this one is not by cast. It looks more like struck.

Is there anybody who familiar with EFTIS fake coins?

[epmunt]

I know you have to be carefull of the coins you buy,.But if you worried about every coin you buy , You would never buy anything.

The hazelmere forger , who forged gold staters got away with it for years, untill the advent of metal detectors, & genuine staters were unearthed,  someone noticed that the engraving was ragged on the fakes,as opposed to smooth continuous engraving on the dug ups.

How many collectors have got these in there cabinet.

Hello bigron, so, what is your idea about this fake coin? You think it is real? If you are not able to tell this fake piece, you should really stop buying coins, otherwise you will have a lot of these stuff in your cabinet.

[Nassif]

Hi;
Long time ago ,i talked about the struck method,which is very old in forgery and well known
Regards.
nassif

[slokind]

Yes, I was waiting and watching to see whether any certainty, even though for an outstanding mint like Antioch and for a king whose tetradrachms are generally of very high quality, without unkind comparison with one that pretty surely is legit, would be reached.  Mine is not of the very highest quality, but the dies are very good.  The eye of the king on a Seleucid tet is almost always beautifully carved (though not quite at the level of that Athenian decadrachm that CNG is displaying: that is not merely breathtaking but actually deeply moving in its beauty).  Form the habit of looking at the hair (do you feel how it grows?) and the continuity, coherence of forms (not merely features about where they ought to be).  Things like that gorgoneion in profile on Athena's shield also must look as if the artist knew what was intended (so you, too, must know what a classical gorgoneion looks like in profile).  The reason I referred you to the Freeman & Sear 13 list was that it showed a variety of mints.  Most of them aren't as sound formally as the Antioch one, but they'll pass the test.  If you don't have a good digital camera, get a 10X loupe to study with.  I'm sorry that your coin doesn't pass muster, IMO.  If you like Seleucid portraits, most libraries have that picture book by Davis and Kraay.  Borrow it and enjoy the excellent photos. Pat L.
P.S. I just added, above, with the coin, the kind of Medusa in question, though I didn't find the pure profile.  You can see how, on the good coin, though the gorgoneion is the size of a tetartemorion, it captures the feeling of that Medusa.  At least one outstanding scholar places the original of that Medusa (in the Glyptothek, Munich) on the shield of a famous Athenian Athena (the Velletri type) of about 420 BCE.  By the way, these coins, with such a gorgoneion on the shield, tend to refute the idea that the marble copy in Munich isn't really classical, as some have claimed.  I agree with Prof. Harrison that it is late 5th century, though the copy of course is Imperial period.