Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: The Last of the NewStyles  (Read 1029 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline cicerokid

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1051
The Last of the NewStyles
« on: February 19, 2022, 09:01:09 am »
I have been inundated with requests to know more about the beautiful NewStyles from the nasty Mr L L Sulla to it's demise under Marcus Antonius or there abouts. Obverses at the Time of Thompson and as now are shown)
Now when he laid siege to Piraeus and to Athens "that was it "for the Mithradatic cause who controlled Athens and its port.
First Archelaus skipped out of the port on a fast Trireme leaving Athens to be defended by Aristion on the Acropolis, it didn't last long and nor did Aristion surrounded by a destroyed Athens.
It seems Mr Mithradates caused only about 3 obverses to be minted in his name as first magistrate, maybe a few Mithradatic tetradrachms minted by him in Athens and loads and loads of Fulminating Zeus Bronze/Lead AE's. All useless when Sulla won and most of the silver probably got eventually melted and much AE was chucked.
The NewStyle might have tentatively started in Athens name but where the O Demos  NO A :Greek_Theta_2:E)and the 2 Ear of grain types "look a like" come in we don't know - who minted them, wher and when?
Often the less controversial Beatyl  With Fillets starts the revival of the NewStyle proper and generally the obverses start to increase back to reasonable numbers reaching a quite respectable 17 obverses with Stag. Then declining to 6 with Bakhos.  What caused this mini-revival is probably due to the short-lived 2nd Mithradatic war.
And then it plummets. In the list in the best order I know, the largest obverses is 4 obverses achieved 3 times , There is an occasion where it seems, no tetradrachms were produced. The last discovered NewStyle from the Hierprytena hoard is a shambles a single known coin that is actually an over-strike on an unknown Alex the Great tetradrachm. This smacks of desperation.

In my humble opinion, what real use is these small issues other than as personal issues, that probably possibly were financed by individuals or their organisations that they represent. Look at the 3 issues by Diokles, Diokles the 2nd and Diokles for the THIRD time as proclaimed on the coins.I own a Diokles To Dey ( for the 2nd Time)  proclaiming his services in the priesthood he was associated with. How personal can you get!

When M Anthony came to stay in Athens as the NEW DIONYSOS the coinage changed and the NewStyle became extinct.

GoD this is far more fascinating than a million LRB's , but many or most think not!
Timeo Danaos afferentem coronas

Offline Jay GT4

  • Tribunus Plebis 2021
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 6987
  • Leave the gun, take the Canoli!
Re: The Last of the NewStyles
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2022, 10:33:13 am »

GoD this is far more fascinating than a million LRB's , but many or most think not!


😀  Yes I would agree, but to each his own.

Offline SC

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6068
    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: The Last of the NewStyles
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2022, 11:11:23 am »
Them's fight'n words!

Though it would be an unfair fight - one tiny LRB David vs. the huge New Style Goliath.  Luckily LRBs are so much more common so they would be able to swarm the New Style like the Liliputeans swarmed Gulliver and tied him to the beach.

SC
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline cicerokid

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1051
Re: The Last of the NewStyles
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2022, 11:41:26 am »
yeah . I got a use for a LRB I had, I got it to put under a Shabti I had that did not have a square pedestal for the stand I made for it. A quick shove of a LRB and super glue fixed the problem !

Not good photo though
Timeo Danaos afferentem coronas

Offline Heliodromus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2176
Re: The Last of the NewStyles
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2022, 11:46:19 am »
GoD this is far more fascinating than a million LRB's , but many or most think not!

So make the case - what makes new style owls more interesting to you than LRBs?

I also wonder how familiar you are with LRBs? As an example, take the coinage of Constantine I (my focus) - to an outsider you may see a million Sol, campgate & soldier-and-standard types and your eyes my glaze over, but in reality Constantine issued over 100 major reverse types (not counting all the issues/variations), many of which are excruciatingly rare (some known from a single specimen). On that basis new styles appear to be a bore-fest of a single type;)

I understand your frustration in having amassed such a complete collection of new styles, and not receiving the attention you think they deserve, but imagine how new styles look to an outside observer... It's as if you'd just chosen to focus on a single LRB reverse type such as campgates and are screaming at the world why your single-type collection is so fascinating!

Offline cicerokid

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1051
Re: The Last of the NewStyles
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2022, 12:14:29 pm »
All my post Sullan's.
Including Stag...the one that got away
Timeo Danaos afferentem coronas

Offline Heliodromus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2176
Re: The Last of the NewStyles
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2022, 12:27:28 pm »
Quote
All my post Sullans.

OK, but try to describe what makes them interesting to someone not familiar with new styles. You seem to want other people to care, but WHY should they care? You have to admit the coins themselves don't offer much variety, so presumably it's the background history that makes them interesting? You tell me! And what makes the post-Sulla coins more interesting than the others?

BTW - what is that thing propping up your shabati? Hopefully nothing too valuable! (some LRBs run into the $1000's, although that thing does look more like a rusty bottle top!).

Offline Carausius

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1432
    • My Forum Gallery:
Re: The Last of the NewStyles
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2022, 12:53:00 pm »
Quote
GoD this is far more fascinating than a million LRB's , but many or most think not!

Agree with Heliodromus - get people excited about New Styles by propping-up New Styles with interesting posts like the substance of your post; not by tearing-down the collecting/research focus of others.  The first approach might attract collectors to your field.  The latter merely offends.

As a Roman Republican collector who happens to be of Greek ancestry, I find this era of Athens history fascinating.  I would like to learn more. 

Your chart above has a column for "tet and drachm die link" can you explain?  Are there verified die links between these denominations?  I've owned one of each and cannot imagine how die links could exist with the great difference in module.  Perhaps you are just referring to links within the denominations?

Offline Virgil H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: The Last of the NewStyles
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2022, 01:16:34 pm »
GoD this is far more fascinating than a million LRB's , but many or most think not!

I think it is quite relative, one can be fascinated by both. However, not everyone has a large or unlimited budget, so we seek areas of affordability that also interest us. Since I have a wide range of interests, it is quite easy to find areas I enjoy that I can afford. Frankly, to me, all ancients are interesting. My latest area of interest are Macedonian Phillip II naked horsemen with different symbols below the horse.

And, sorry for your loss, I hope you are coping as well as you can be.

Regards,
Virgil

Offline cicerokid

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1051
Re: The Last of the NewStyles
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2022, 01:17:07 pm »
Heliodorus, you are what I think of as REAL COLLECTORS. who can see through the apparent sameness to appreciate what I cannot. With the NewStyle practically everyone has a different symbol almost certainly picked by the first magistrate, that's a great historical link and easy for us who are not as appreciative of the nuances of more challenging types.
Take my Hygeia. What date is it ? Well it seems the experts know the guy, we are pretty certain he produced 3 issues, probably close together but not consecutively, Mine is the middle issue Diokles TODEY ( Diokles for the 2nd time) if we plum for c47 BC and work upto Beatyl with fillets that doesn't bring us anywhere near 85/4 BC. just after the destruction of Sulla. But we know ( not me Experts) that Diokles was about the mid to late 40's BC. It's all Greek to me. I doubt I could see any further even if I jumped on the shoulders of other numismatists. But what a problem. When did the NewStyle start up again? Is the ethnisckless O Demos really an issue, did the Lucullan coinage and the Two Trophies issue ,again ethnicless, also work as NewStylesa. I look and see if I can find anything in the auctions that might be missed...the answer is out there (start music).

I haven totally failed with the early catalogue and the rome-Pontic and post Sullan era's but it's out there unless finally I give up and settle down and accept long gaps whilst the NewStyle wanes as a personal issue ( most likely). What to make of the Apollo with Lyre issue from the Hierprytena (CRETE) hoard which contained a few late post Sullan coins and other interesting coins like RR denari and a CICERO ( TULLIUS) cistophorus!

What to do?  This is really fascinating and the problem sans solution is before my eyes. With Margaret Thompson's analysis the Barclay Head type of classification proved wrong. Now Margaret Thompsons general era dating is wrong, fascinating... I cant beat it,iot's too alluring. What of the symbols and magistrates names of the Rime-Pontic times Kointos anyone Aristion, and Apellicon-then Thief of Teos...surely they are irresistible?
How do they (if they do) linkem with the other stephanophores, should we consider the NewStyle as a Roman proxy coinage...why are so many NewStyles of 4 issues found in such numbers as to be "significantly over-represented " Balkan hoards. There are more questions than answers.
Gosh I must take a pill and Calm down!

Can you see I'm addicted now As much as anything my motive is to promote others to take up the NewStyle and solve the puzzles, that is my real task!
Timeo Danaos afferentem coronas

Offline Carausius

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1432
    • My Forum Gallery:
Re: The Last of the NewStyles
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2022, 01:26:21 pm »
Quote
an you see I'm addicted now As much as anything my motive is to promote others to take up the NewStyle and solve the puzzles, that is my real task!

Well, keep up the interesting posts!  Keep down the snobbery (sorry).  Your interesting posts over the years actually encouraged me to read an article in ANS Museum Notes 29 that I came across accidentally: Morkholm, "The Chronology of the New Style Coinage of Athens."  I bought this volume for Hersh and Walker's analysis of the Mesagne Hoard of Roman denarii.  I read the New Style article because of you.  So, chin up!

Offline Heliodromus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2176
Re: The Last of the NewStyles
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2022, 03:06:06 pm »
Quote
Heliodorus, you are what I think of as REAL COLLECTORS. who can see through the apparent sameness to appreciate what I cannot.

Actually when I said 100+ major reverse types for Constantine I, I really did meant MAJOR - completely different reverse designs and legends - not just subtle variations of a few core types. I guess what's good for us hard-core Constantine collectors is that many of these reverse types are so rarely seen that it's easy to conclude that his coins would be boring to collect !

Quote
With the NewStyle practically everyone has a different symbol almost certainly picked by the first magistrate, that's a great historical link and easy for us who are not as appreciative of the nuances of more challenging types.

I can see how this must be a an intriguing puzzle to solve, and making your own discoveries is really one of the most fun parts of collecting ancients !

Offline cicerokid

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1051
Re: The Last of the NewStyles
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2022, 03:47:53 pm »
It just fascinates me that  they and the rise and fall of the stephanophore is not treated by at all by Forum and CT members. I know they can get pricey, but you don't need to physically collect. The last great article was by Andrew Meadows on "The great Transformation" I have suggested to Sally Oliver to get Professor Meadows and Prof. Francoise deCallatay to write articles in Studia Numisnorum (sp)sponsored by Roma.
Yes priced have rocketed in the last couple of Covid years, I was lucky I started about 12 year's ago and really seriously 10 years ago. Soon lots of coins came on e-bay from probable Balken hoards via German dealers. This happened for a couple of years or so and I picked off rare coins and my particular favourites. Not all in good condition by all means but some beauties. I got the best example existing (that's my view) of Thompson #1 on which I wrote about T#1 in  "Some new coin types in the Athens early New Style coin type" academia.edu under John Arnold Nisbet where die 3 of T#1 was reasonably commonly use whilst die 1 and 2 have not appeared as far as I can find since NSSCA was published in 1961. That's a good read I put myself to bed with it every night! It even shows egregious cataloguing errors  after all All NewStyles look the same. Even the previous owners had not spotted the bleedin' obvious. Shades of millionaire owners who collect for no apparent sensible reason! See, The BM UNESCO 1970, coin collectors and me a rip-roaring exposai  on the now popular examination of coins and their holders just before provenance became all Another must read by yours truly on academia. edu.
Some topics are still on going due to...Museums  .....not allowing publishing and passing it on to the next person in line. See the odyssey of the Poggio Pincenze hoard IGCH 2056. also in academia.edu . Where museums do everything they can do to seemingly hold up research. Museums are prison cells for objects . Just a fabulous range of subjects all inspired by my journey and things NewStyle on academia .edu

John
Timeo Danaos afferentem coronas

Offline Virgil H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: The Last of the NewStyles
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2022, 05:48:29 pm »
Just as an aside, I find museums that have so much stored in back rooms and basements not accessible to be against what museums are supposed to be about. I guess many say the same about private collections, but I see no reason for a museum to acquire things no one is ever going to see. Yeah, I get the research angle, but that rubs against my anti-elitist itch where only the anointed are granted access. I would even support these basement items to be portioned out to smaller museums around the world that would actually display them for people to see.

Virgil

Offline Serendipity

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 157
    • My Gallery
Re: The Last of the NewStyles
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2022, 06:48:40 pm »
Just as an aside, I find museums that have so much stored in back rooms and basements not accessible to be against what museums are supposed to be about. I guess many say the same about private collections, but I see no reason for a museum to acquire things no one is ever going to see. Yeah, I get the research angle, but that rubs against my anti-elitist itch where only the anointed are granted access. I would even support these basement items to be portioned out to smaller museums around the world that would actually display them for people to see.

Virgil

I read somewhere that museums find coins the most troublesome items to showcase because they need two of the same coins in order to show the obverse and reverse sides of the coin which is why they often end up gathering dust in back rooms and basements. It’s not a problem, of course, when they showcase the coins online.

Offline Virgil H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: The Last of the NewStyles
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2022, 07:55:40 pm »
I am sure there is something to that argument, plus they are small, so hard to see. They could do a revolving type display, but that would add to cost. Or focus on just one side as a theme or something, such as emperors. There are ways. But there are hundreds or even thousands of small museums with no coins and a small display would add to their offerings and be of interest. Better than being in a box in a dusty basement. It could even be a loan system. My small local museum has no coins. Just a thought, but most museums aren't going to give up anything. I think coin displays at art museums would be nice, too. Wouldn't have to be huge displays, either and could also be some kind of chronological display. I could go on, many museums have all kinds of things that no one ever sees. I just find that sad.

Virgil

Offline cicerokid

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1051
Re: The Last of the NewStyles
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2022, 06:12:12 am »
A museum  CORBY Northampton was donated a stellar  old kingdom statue. Corby was the centre of the now long gone shoe industry. The museum loves all things shoes. So after a time the statue became lodged in it's back rooms. Then some museum staff decided it had to go so they could get some more shoes. And lo and behold they sold it. Half to them and half to the family of the original owners.
I generally HATE museums, corridors of ignorance.
Timeo Danaos afferentem coronas

Offline Virgil H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: The Last of the NewStyles
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2022, 01:23:59 pm »
Holy moly, a statue like that would be the centerpiece of many small museums. And they could have had sandals on display beside it or something :-)

Virgil

Offline cicerokid

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1051
Re: The Last of the NewStyles
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2022, 02:43:19 pm »

That's what expert do, make mistakes!  Look up museum of shoes Northampton look how crap it it!
Timeo Danaos afferentem coronas

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity