Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. All Items Purchased From Forum Ancient Coins Are Guaranteed Authentic For Eternity!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Internet challenged? We Are Happy To Take Your Order Over The Phone 252-646-1958 Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: NAΣΙ - Nesos or some other city?  (Read 3491 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline OldMoney

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1289
  • My Site! www.oldmoney.com.au
    • Walter Holt's Old Money
NAΣΙ - Nesos or some other city?
« on: March 11, 2016, 03:42:37 am »
It is not often that an apparently brand new coin type comes
to the fore, but in the past year or so it seems that just such
a thing may have occurred.

General specifications: Approx. 9-10mm, and about 1.0g +/-.
(more-or-less typical of a c.4th century Asia Minor origin)

The type shows a facing head, wreathed and with wavy hair,
on the obverse, and a female head facing right on the reverse,
sometimes with a symbol in right field (perhaps a prawn/shrimp
[or a long-stemmed flower?]).

Where any ethnic can be found, it clearly reads: NAΣΙ

The island of Nesos, between the island of Lesbos and the
coast of Asia Minor is known to have struck small bronze coins
with this same legend, but that coin is generally much smaller,
and lighter (about 8-9mm and around 0.6-0.8g +/-).

That coin shows the head of Apollo in profile on the obverse,
and a crouching panther on the reverse (sometimes with an
additional field symbol).

There does not seem to be any other city (that I have found)
with precisely this same ethnic "NAΣΙ" (ref: Icard).

I would be interested in hearing what others have to suggest
about this enigmatic - and apparently newly surfaced - issue.

Walter Holt

{dealer's image}
Coins of Ephesus
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/ephesuscoins
Walter Holt's Old Money - Ancient Coins
https://www.oldmoney.com.au
Sydney, Australia

Offline Molinari

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4555
  • My defeat, if understood, should be my glory
Re: NAΣΙ - Nesos or some other city?
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2016, 07:21:48 am »
I'd say it is a new variety from Nesos. With such a clear inscription and fitting into the general look of bronzes from that area (Asia Minor), I see no reason to think it was struck anywhere else.

Offline Pharsalos

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 133
Re: NAΣΙ - Nesos or some other city?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2016, 11:16:46 am »
To me, the reverse bears a striking resemblance to the depiction of Aphrodite Melainis on coinage minted in Thespiai (or Thespiae). Was the worship of Aphrodite associated with Nesos?

Offline OldMoney

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1289
  • My Site! www.oldmoney.com.au
    • Walter Holt's Old Money
Re: NAΣΙ - Nesos or some other city?
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2016, 12:07:57 pm »
Quote from: Pharsalos on March 16, 2016, 11:16:46 am
To me, the reverse bears a striking resemblance to the depiction of Aphrodite Melainis on coinage minted in Thespiai (or Thespiae). Was the worship of Aphrodite associated with Nesos?

Hi Pharsalos, Thanks for yours.

I can see what you mean about the general design, but those Thespian
items all appear to be silver, and show a crescent (and the ethnic is certain).

I will have to check about the worship of Aphrodite Melainis, but from past
readings it does not immediately ring a bell.

It is not often that an apparently entirely new type appears, and for them
to be from Nesos "NAΣΙ" is quite extraordinary, but clearly not impossible.

Are there any other alternate ideas/suggestions/thoughts/arguments?

Walter Holt
Coins of Ephesus
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/ephesuscoins
Walter Holt's Old Money - Ancient Coins
https://www.oldmoney.com.au
Sydney, Australia

Offline Mark Fox

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1271
Re: NAΣΙ - Nesos or some other city?
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2016, 02:27:05 pm »
Dear Walter and Board,

A thoughtful friend alerted me to this thread a few days ago, which I had completely missed.  Being Sunday, I will take some time out now to discuss these enigmatic bronzes.  

I have been enthusiastically involved in their study since their first major appearance on the market in roughly August of last year.  At first my friend and I tinkered with the idea of Larissa Phriconis, but quickly discarded this possibility as more specimens appeared, which clearly read "[...]ΑΣΙ."  As in your case, Nesus was entertained for a while.  However, it finally became apparent that the full (abbreviated) ethnic was "ΙΑΣΙ," while a certain variety read simply "ΙΑ."  

The only known city that had a similar ethnic to the mystery bronze group was Iasus (Iasos) in Caria, usually cited on coins as ΙΑΣΕΩΝ or an abbreviation thereof.  So if the coins were to be identified with Iasus, it followed that they were using an earlier form of the city ethnic, in which case they most likely predated all the usual Iasian coin types.        

The peculiar object to the right of the nymph is indeed a shrimp, which is present on 2-3 other completely different ΙΑΣΙ bronze types that have subsequently come to light.  Athenaeus gives a possible reason for the choice of this civic badge where he writes:

"That artificer of fancy dishes, Archestratus, gives this advice: 'If ever you go to Iasus, city of the Carians, you will get a good-sized shrimp. But it is rare in the market, whereas in Macedonia and Ambracia there are plenty.' " (Athen. 3.105e)    

Be certain to also read footnote no. 29 on page 108 of Hellenistic Fortifications from the Aegean to the Euphrates (1997) by Anthony McNicoll & Nicholas Milner:

https://books.google.com/books?id=qmYEKxjV5bIC&lpg=PA108&ots=mhcjHbtTp1&dq=Iasos%20shrimp&pg=PA108#v=onepage&q=Iasos%20shrimp&f=false

So much for the evidence in favor of Iasus.  The main con against this attribution is nearly everything else, from the coins' imagery and consistently small sizes (all types), to their association with non-Carian bronzes on the market, especially from Aeolis.  My friend stressed this last point and has noted that the usual Iasian coin types are rarely offered in comparison to the "new" types.
I can only agree, which has led us both to wonder if we are actually looking at the local change of a newly recognized coin-issuing city in Asia Minor.  Doubts aside, I will continue to delay giving a firm opinion on the matter until I have read:

Ashton, R. 'The pre-imperial coinage of Iasos', NC 167, 2007, 47–78, pl. 7–15.

I suspect he must be aware of at least one of the possible "shrimpy" types, since I found such a coin listed under Iasus in the online BnF database.  So I am anxious to read what he might have to say, once I get a few things off my lap...

This post certainly doesn't enumerate all my findings that will eventually be published if all goes well, but hopefully enough to give you a better footing to ponder these remarkable coins.

  
Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan

Offline Mark Fox

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1271
Re: NAΣΙ - Nesos or some other city?
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2016, 03:54:45 pm »
Hello again Walter, Board,

Again, being Sunday, I decided to finally take a look at Ashton's paper:  

http://www.jstor.org/stable/42666930

Never mind about some of what I said above, the Iasean attribution of all the bronzes in question seems fairly certain now.  Oh well...  Attached is a sample page.  I find it strange, though, that none of the coins he recorded actually read "ΙΑΣΙ," as in the piece pictured in this thread.  

If anyone has access to the plates in Ashton's article (not available on JSTOR), I would be very curious to also see them.    


Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan

Taras

  • Guest
Re: NAΣΙ - Nesos or some other city?
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2016, 06:11:48 pm »
Great post Mark Fox! thanks for this  +++
I am much interested on the coinage of this mint, as it is involved in the iconography of the boy on dolphin. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8522656x


bye :)
Nico

Offline Mark Fox

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1271
Re: NAΣΙ - Nesos or some other city?
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2016, 02:42:10 am »
Dear Nico and Board,

Thank you for the kind words.  I can certainly understand your fascination with Iasus, numismatically speaking.  What I find particularly interesting about the boy and dolphin types is what many scholars have already noted:  on most coins, the boy is holding onto the dolphin with one hand rather than riding it as several ancient historians have actually said in reference to the city's coinage.  My impression of the usual Iasean depiction is that the boy is not only swimming alongside the dolphin, but is also being saved by the animal.  On Monday I happened to come across the attached coin (17mm, 4.21 g), showing a bow and quiver below the boy and dolphin.  Such discarded gear could possibly support the "rescue theory" or at least illustrate an aspect of this poorly recorded myth that may not be otherwise preserved.  

After browsing through another article in the 2007 volume of the Numismatic Chronicle, I suddenly realized that I was mistaken about JSTOR.  They do include the plates for each article.  So I am attaching plate 7, which illustrates some of the coins from Ashton's paper.  Sure enough, the Apollo/Nymph pieces are identical in design to the type that started this thread.  The resolution of the page scan does not allow me to read the coins, but I strongly suspect that the dies were also inscribed "ΙΑΣΙ" instead of "ΙΑΣΕ."  I am thinking Ashton assumed the latter was correct, based on the low state of preservation of the coin specimens he was studying.
  

Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan

Offline Molinari

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4555
  • My defeat, if understood, should be my glory
Re: NAΣΙ - Nesos or some other city?
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2016, 07:10:09 am »

Where any ethnic can be found, it clearly reads: NAΣΙ


So I take it there are no examples with the inscription NAΣΙ?

Offline Mark Fox

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1271
Re: NAΣΙ - Nesos or some other city?
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2016, 02:31:49 pm »
Dear Nick and Board,

If by "examples" you mean the tiny Apollo/nymph coins that started this thread, then you are correct.  Most, if not all, of them probably read "ΙΑΣΙ", despite the readings of "ΙΑΣΕ" Ashton gave in his paper.


Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan

Taras

  • Guest
Re: NAΣΙ - Nesos or some other city?
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2016, 04:50:23 pm »
Thanks for sharing the plate Mark!


...or at least illustrate an aspect of this poorly recorded myth that may not be otherwise preserved.   


Your words are a crucial issue for research on those ancient iconographies. Sometimes we shall tolerate the frustration of not having literary sources that clearly explain us what we see represented on coins, gems and vases.
The approach I use in such cases is to use different semantic levels: from the most specific to the most undifferentiated and vice versa, on a kind of hierarchical pyramid of iconological reading levels.
To explain better, something like this (this is just a simplified sample):

Anthropomorphic character carried by animal in water

:Greek_Iota:

Male carried by dolphin / female by dolphin / male by turtle / male by swimming man-faced bull / female by swimming man-faced bull

:Greek_Iota:

...and so for any of the iconographies, going on branching into more specific levels, when we have sources to help us, as example in the case of the first entry (boy carried by dolphin), we can further branch out the specific myths:

Male carried by dolphin

:Greek_Iota:

Taras / Phalanthos / Melikertes / Palaimon / Hermias

etc.

Once we have gathered all the informations available from ancient sources on the different specific myths we can isolate the essential features, and move up the pyramid back to the more generic aspects, to see if there are recurrent structures.
By this approach we can something spot very interesting points, reading symbolic meanings of certain images, which would otherwise remain hidden in the behind of what appears to our eyes.

Sorry if all this is a bit OT, but the insightful post by Mark Fox prompted me.
I hope this post is not too obscure, it's a bit difficult for me to think in Italian and write my thoughts in English.

Bye :)
Nico

Asia Minor Coins

  • Guest
Re: NAΣΙ - Nesos or some other city?
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2016, 04:09:46 am »
Walter

It would be great if you could provide a link to the original listing of this coin by G&N.  We would like to upload it to the AsiaMinorCoins.com website.  I meant to upload it but cannot find the link anymore.  We have another example here - http://www.asiaminorcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=12765  But yours has a clear ethnic.  You could also submit the pic and info here - http://asiaminorcoins.com/submit.html

Thanks!

Dimitry
www.AsiaMinorCoins.com

Asia Minor Coins

  • Guest
Re: NAΣΙ - Nesos or some other city?
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2016, 03:11:12 am »
With Walter's help, I uploaded several examples of this coin to the Asia Minor Coins index - http://www.asiaminorcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=208

It is also interesting to point out that there are two variants of this coin - one with Apollo facing slightly left (with ΙΑΣΙ legend), and another with Apollo slightly right (with abbreviated IA legend).

Dimitry
www.AsiaMinorCoins.com

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity