Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Gordian III Tetradrachms & Egypt, Alexandria Mint Workshops (Milne 1918)  (Read 525 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Curtis JJ

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 435
    • CONSERVATORI: Ancient Coins & Their Provenances
I have a question sparked by the Alexandrian tetradrachm from the Dattari collection (now my coll.):


Quote
Gordian III (238-244) Billon Tetradrachm (23mm., 12.35g, 12h). Egypt, Alexandria, 243-4 CE.
Obverse: Α Κ Μ ΑΝΤ Γ-ΟΡΔΙΑΝΟϹ ƐΥ. Laureate, draped & cuirassed bust r.
Reverse: Bust of Helios facing r., radiate & draped. L-Z (Regnal Year 7).
Published: Dattari [1901] 4731 (this coin cited, corr. legend); Dattari-Savio [1999, 2007] pl. 252, 4731 (this coin illustrated); RPC VII.2 3874 (this coin illustrated online); See also: Vogt II [1924] Alexandrinischen p. 140 (this coin cited); Klose & Overbeck [1989] Ägypten zur Römerzeit p. 36, No. 97 (this coin cited); SNG Hunterian [2008] p. CCCVIII (this coin cited).
Further Refs: Milne 3466; BMC Alexandria 1859; Emmett 3407; K&G 72.137; Feuardent [1869] v2, p. 210, 2743;
See especially: CNA XVIII [3 Dec 1991], Lot 443 = Col. J. Curtis [1990] #1265 (same obv. die & only other published specimen w/ same legend break); on the significance of obv. legend breaks, see Milne [1918] “The Shops of the Roman Mint of Alexandria” (JSTOR 370158).
Provenance: Ex-Naville Numismatics (London) Auction 60 (27 September 2020), #308; ex Giovanni Dattari (1858-1923) collection, before 1901.

I noticed something interesting about this specimen as soon as began researching it: The Legend Break.

The obverse legend break is between the G and the O in the emperor’s name (Γ – ΟΡΔΙΑΝΟϹ), but on almost all other specimens of this type, it comes between GO and R (ΓΟ – ΡΔΙΑΝΟϹ). (The G-O obverse break does appear with other reverses, but only one other example for Helios of Year 7.)

A typical specimen (NOT mine):

Quote
Oxford HCR30944 = Milne 3466 [LINK]

Legend breaks aren’t usually the most meaningful variants. But, in this case, they may be.

In 1918, J.G. Milne wrote an article about “The Shops of the Roman Mint of Alexandria” (The Journal of Roman Studies 8: 154-178) [LINK]. One of his hypotheses was that, for certain emperors (including Gordian III), the different workshops identified their coins with different obverse legend breaks (among other variations).

In fact, he specifically mentioned Gordian III’s legend breaks for Year 7, G-O vs. GO-R:
Quote
Page 166-8: “… the legend is broken in most cases at the points -Γ  OPΔ- or - Γ0  PΔ-, rarely -ΓOP  Δ-… These facts suggest that the variation in the break of the legend was intended to serve […as marks of differentiation which would serve to classify the coins under shops].”

My question: Was this topic ever followed up in later research? Has anyone ever come across this theory?

To be honest, aside from the Nomes, I don’t remember reading about different Alexandrian workshops. But, if it’s a plausible hypothesis, I think I see a fairly straightforward way to test the theory, using Gordian III’s Year 7 Tetradrachms.


ADDITIONAL NOTES:

The only other such specimen I’ve found is the specimen from the Col. James Curtis Collection (#1265). It was not pictured in his books or articles, but appears in CNA Auction XVIII (3 Dec 1991), Lot 443. Notably, Curtis did indicate the different legend breaks (calling this one var. “C”).


Quote
Col. James Curtis Collection 1265, cited in Curtis (1969, 1990). Illustrated in CNA XVIII, 443 [LINK]

Interestingly, Dattari himself seems to have gotten the legend break wrong in his 1901 catalog! (Describing it as  ΓΟ – ΡΔΙΑΝΟϹ.)

Examples of this obverse legend break (including this obverse die) appear paired with other reverse types. Hint: The fact that it appears paired with other reverses is what makes Milne’s (1918) hypothesis eminently testable (NOT mine):


Quote
RPC VII.2, 3877. Nike advancing left. Berlin 18275506, Löbb. [LINK]

Additional Gordian III Year 7 Tetradrachms: [LINK]
“Collect the collectors…” John W Adams’ advice to J Orosz (Asylum 38, 2: p51)

Galleries https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=27154

Offline iwaniw

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 673
Re: Gordian III Tetradrachms & Egypt, Alexandria Mint Workshops (Milne 1918)
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2023, 12:00:38 pm »
Curtis.

Two varieties:

E3407(7)a with g-0 break
E3407(7)b with go-r break.
I had yours and the curtis coin cited for var. "A"

There are Curtis  notes in his copy of Milne (along with additional tetradrachms and bronze coins) described using Milne's more precise detail.

The book with 2000 Dattari coins I got from the author. I might have the email still on my system. I am not sure if there are copies. The authors were planning on doing an additional volume.

Iwaniw

Offline Curtis JJ

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 435
    • CONSERVATORI: Ancient Coins & Their Provenances
Re: Gordian III Tetradrachms & Egypt, Alexandria Mint Workshops (Milne 1918)
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2023, 09:17:49 pm »
Iwaniw --

Thanks much! I hadn't noticed that Emmett mentioned the legend breaks, but now I see it at the top of the page.

Your book sounds like great work! Cataloging all of those types and their specimens separately would be quite valuable. I can understand why it would fill so many pages. (It took me forever to find Col. Curtis 1265, so I can imagine how much work must have been involved.)

Wow, it would be exciting to see Col. Curtis's annotated copy of Milne! That would be such a special volume to have in one's library.
“Collect the collectors…” John W Adams’ advice to J Orosz (Asylum 38, 2: p51)

Galleries https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=27154

Offline iwaniw

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 673
Re: Gordian III Tetradrachms & Egypt, Alexandria Mint Workshops (Milne 1918)
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2023, 02:55:54 pm »
Curtis:

The new Emmett book is a variety book with pictures of virtually all the varieties.

I have page scans of the Curtis collection, written in his copy of Milne. I had borrowed the book from the collector. I made notes on Curtis' bronze collection, of which there are over 1000 coins as well as some notes regarding some of the pictures that I found.

When the Curtis tetradrachm collection was auctioned it was planned to next offer the bronze collection, but the sale of the tetradrachms likely did not go well so a later sale did not happen. Some of the bidders in the tetradrachm sale were offered some of the bronze coins. A number of these coins were sold in Olympus #5 list, which was incorrectly listed as a list from Empire coins in the Durst reprint of the Curtis book (of the first edition).?

Iwaniw

Offline Tom Mullally

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1086
Re: Gordian III Tetradrachms & Egypt, Alexandria Mint Workshops (Milne 1918)
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2023, 09:56:44 pm »
New Emmett book? Can you please tell me more?

Tom
Tom Mullally

Classical Numismatic Group

Offline iwaniw

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 673
Re: Gordian III Tetradrachms & Egypt, Alexandria Mint Workshops (Milne 1918)
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2023, 01:52:42 pm »
Hi Tom,

So far 770 draft pages have been completed which cover the variety catalogue with inserted pictures of virtually all the varieties cited, as well as notes where the missing pictures can be located (bmc, etc). The book covers the obverse types, and the obverses are also collected in plates as well as all the reverse types found in the book.

The book covers only Elagabalus to Domitius Domitianus.

The reference sections have been completed adding many auction items, private collections, etc.

What remains to be completed is the introduction parts which likely will be 35 or so pages. Ultimately the pictures have to be colour corrected and improved, but all pictures have been selected.

I should know better about the publishing date in a few months time.

Iwaniw

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity