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Author Topic: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!  (Read 94979 times)

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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #150 on: March 06, 2016, 01:28:14 pm »
Quote from: Carausius on March 06, 2016, 10:51:59 am
Nice finds in Banti, Andrew. I must admit that I have none of the "green" set of Banti, but it looks like I should consider buying volumes 1-6.   Regarding Hamburger 96, I was aware that some of that sale included ex Jameson coins, but I assumed they were limited to the Greek section. Do you think the Republican coins of that sale are all Jameson?  I'm about to meet my binder (waiting in her parking lot as I type this)  to have Hamburger's Niklovitz, 95 and 96 sales bound in two volumes.

You might as well get all of the green Banti-Simonetti. Vol 7 includes many Republican provincial pieces which you might as well get in case your interests expand; ditto for 8 (Livia, Caius, Lucius, later Agrippa), and by then you need more than half the full set. It's not usually so expensive.

I'm probably in error regarding Jameson, I inferred it from Spring. I bound 95 and 96 together, slim volumes.

Offline Carausius

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #151 on: March 06, 2016, 02:20:23 pm »
You might as well get all of the green Banti-Simonetti. Vol 7 includes many Republican provincial pieces which you might as well get in case your interests expand; ditto for 8 (Livia, Caius, Lucius, later Agrippa), and by then you need more than half the full set. It's not usually so expensive.

I'm probably in error regarding Jameson, I inferred it from Spring. I bound 95 and 96 together, slim volumes.

Thanks for the tip re Banti. Yes, I'm also binding Hamburger 95 and 96 together in one volume. By two volumes, I meant  Nikloviz in one, 95 and 96 in another.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #152 on: March 08, 2016, 05:05:36 am »
Coins from good auctions have a devious way of finding their way home to me. Münzzentrum Albrecht XXX (21 Nov.1977) is a case in point. I wasn't at the auction (I was 14 and didn't have many DM). Nevertheless I now have eight coins:

1 via Hirsch 156
1 via Künker E6, actually bought by a fellow Forum member (Andreas), then reached me in a swap deal
1 via Bombarda coll. (private purchase)
1 via Hirsch 263 and Kölner Münzkabinett Kroha 77
1 via NAC 61 RBW collection
1 via NAC 63 RBW collection and H.W.Müller 43
2 via NAC 78 JD collection

Quite remarkable in the diversity of routes by which these coins have reached me. Evidently it was an excellent sale, in this case stuffed full of high quality Roman Republican bronzes. I have a similar experience with Triton 1. Didn't attend. Now own 18 coins from that sale, from multiple different later sources. I think this is a fingerprint of a truly great auction - when you don't bother attending and the coins get to you anyway. DESTINY!!!

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #153 on: March 18, 2016, 09:57:13 am »
I've been trawling Banti Roman Republican volumes, after finishing the Imperatorial volumes last week. I've Banti provenances all over the place from sales that I already knew featured in Banti. But I found some new time-extending provenances on a few coins too. Here are five new finds from the first 6 volumes (of 9)

494/43 Mussidia with facing head of Sol - ex De Nicola 1968 FPL 3 (Sep.1968) lot 300 = Banti Mvssidia 13/11 (this coin) via Gemini X and the Randy Haviland coll.

419/1 Lepidus AN XV PR HOCS commemorating the battle exploits of a 15 year old ancestor - ex Schulman 262 (14 May 1975) lot 1217 = Banti Aemilia 76/3 (this coin)

133/2a TAMP below horses ex Hirsch 155 (23 Sep.1987) lot 416 (450 DM) ex De Nicola 1969 FPL 1 (Mar.1969) lot 249 = Banti Baebia 2 (this coin)

251/3 Fabrinia triens ex Peus 322 (1 Nov.1988) lot 153 = Banti Fabrinia 3/3 (this coin) coll. AB (Alberto Banti)

210/3 Junia semis ex CNG45 (18 Mar.1998) lot 1506 Goodman coll. ex Peus 322 (1 Nov.1988) lot 96 = Banti Julia 5 (this coin) AB coll. (Alberto Banti coll.)

Five ordinary coins, that absent special circumstances I might eventually have sold. A good provenance counts as a special circumstance. It's interesting that the bronzes were Banti's own, reflecting more the lack of illustrated sales catalogues of bronzes at the time than the special qualities of the coins.

Offline Carausius

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #154 on: March 18, 2016, 12:12:45 pm »
Nice finds! Certainly wise to spend the research time befor deciding which to sell.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #155 on: March 19, 2016, 07:38:51 am »
I finished my Banti trawl and found one more previously-unknown provenance: 204/5 Saufeia quadrans, Triton 1 (2 Dec.1997) lot 1056 Goodman coll. ex Peus 322 (1 Nov.1988) lot 88 = Banti Savfeia 5/1 (this coin) A.B. coll. (Alberto Banti coll. before 1982). The evidence seems to show that the very interesting Peus 322 sale which contains many coins with symbols was probably the sale of Banti's own collection.

So in all six additions to the many existing Banti provenances from a nine volume trawl. I had hoped for more, but I'd forecast that new finds would become much scarcer once I'd completed my trawl of the relatively well provenance CNG and NAC catalogues. As a sidebar diversion I completed my S.C. Collection provenances: 13 coins, 9 with old provenances averaging 1963 composed of two Haeberlin collection coins and 7 others from the early 1970s. Completion status after the Bantis and SC: 538 provenanced coins out of 1195 or 45%, with an average provenance date of 1993 for those 538 (and evidently much more recent for the remaining 55%). I realise these updates are somewhat of a monologue, but just as with Meepzorp's collection-photography and website updates, I think it instructive to less experienced collectors to see what working your collection involves. All the provenancing I've done so far still represents only 50% of the shelf-volume of my catalogues - three shelves out of six - but laws of diminishing returns makes it likely there are less than a few dozen undiscovered finds in the remaining shelves. Those three shelves, acsearch, CNG e-auctions (printed already done) and a careful look at every physical piece of evidence I have - i.e. tickets - is what remains of work that's doable in-house. After that will follow the archives at the NAC office, and then finally the Fitzwilliam. I'll keep note of what's already been checked as I go along.

Once the provenancing work is complete, my next main task will be ticket arrangement, for which purpose I purchased 100 12-slot plastic pages in which to insert documentation of my collection in proper order. I'm unfortunately at ground zero as far as this is concerned; whilst I've apparently orderly boxes that I showed here before for my RBW and NAC tickets, the general situation for lesser sources is much more disturbing. There is a picture below that reflects the aftermath of my searching yesterday evening for S.C. collection tickets and their remnants. Viewer discretion advised. Do not look if you have a tidy mind. The good side of course is that this reflects much coin fun still to do.

Offline carthago

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #156 on: March 19, 2016, 10:25:37 am »
It may seem like a monologue to you, Andrew, but it's a wonderful travelogue to me and I'm enjoying reading each post!

I have hit a dry spell in my provenance searching but not for lack of trying in my free time.  I finally finished my Spring Top 40 with the acquisition of the Bourgey Schott catalogue that received last week (thank you Carausius!  ;D) and I'm still going through my acquisitions from the RBW library which came in 6 big boxes!

I did find a nice provenance for a coin I acquired last year with no leads.  Found it in the ANS photo file which lead me to a Stack's New York, December 7-8, 1989 Lot 3255 which in that catalogue led me to Stack's Frederick S. Knobloch Collection May 3-4, 1978, Lot 749.  It's my only Knobloch coin and the picture can't do it justice.  It's truly a sunning piece in hand and definitely has a old pedigree beyond 1978 so I'm not done with him yet!

P.S.  I love the "Disturbing Tickets" picture!

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #157 on: March 19, 2016, 11:03:27 am »
Well done on the Knobloch and I agree it likely goes back much further. My own example of this type is a Huntington - HSA - ANS coin, all of which I date as "before 1955". I've two Knobloch's and coincidentally one reaches back further to ... Schott!! which you've just received. So Knobloch bought from the Schott sale and that should be the first place you check. Like, right now :)

Offline Carausius

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #158 on: March 19, 2016, 11:43:40 am »
The evidence seems to show that the very interesting Peus 322 sale which contains many coins with symbols was probably the sale of Banti's own collection.

I reached the same conclusion a while ago, as discussed in this Forum thread: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=102443.0

I realise these updates are somewhat of a monologue, but just as with Meepzorp's collection-photography and website updates, I think it instructive to less experienced collectors to see what working your collection involves.

I completely agree - this has been an enjoyable, instructive and encouraging lesson in methods of provenance research.  I've picked-up some tips; I'm sure others have too.  The enormity of the task seemed overwhelming, but taken in shelf-bites (Banti this week; NAC catalogues next week; etc.) becomes less so.


Quote
Once the provenancing work is complete, my next main task will be ticket arrangement, for which purpose I purchased 100 12-slot plastic pages in which to insert documentation of my collection in proper order.

I encourage you to link each ticket slot to the applicable coin with some kind of numbering system, so that even a non-coin collector could marry a coin to its documentation.

Quote from: carthago on March 19, 2016, 10:25:37 am
I did find a nice provenance for a coin I acquired last year with no leads.  Found it in the ANS photo file which lead me to a Stack's New York, December 7-8, 1989 Lot 3255 which in that catalogue led me to Stack's Frederick S. Knobloch Collection May 3-4, 1978, Lot 749.  It's my only Knobloch coin and the picture can't do it justice.  It's truly a sunning piece in hand and definitely has a old pedigree beyond 1978 so I'm not done with him yet!

That's a beauty, Carthago!  That December 1989 Stack's sale was well-stocked with ex Knobloch Republican coins.  I acquired an ex Knobloch 433/1 Brutus in an auction in January that had come from the 1989 Stack's sale with no earlier disclosed provenance.  There was another coin in the same January auction with provenance to both the 1989 Stack's sale and the Knobloch sale.  So, including yours, that's at least 3 Knobloch Republican coins in that 1989 Stack's sale that we know about.

Offline carthago

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #159 on: March 19, 2016, 02:01:28 pm »
Well done on the Knobloch and I agree it likely goes back much further. My own example of this type is a Huntington - HSA - ANS coin, all of which I date as "before 1955". I've two Knobloch's and coincidentally one reaches back further to ... Schott!! which you've just received. So Knobloch bought from the Schott sale and that should be the first place you check. Like, right now :)

Thanks for the tip, but alas, no.   :'(

Quote from: Carausius on March 19, 2016, 11:43:40 am
That's a beauty, Carthago!  That December 1989 Stack's sale was well-stocked with ex Knobloch Republican coins.  I acquired an ex Knobloch 433/1 Brutus in an auction in January that had come from the 1989 Stack's sale with no earlier disclosed provenance.  There was another coin in the same January auction with provenance to both the 1989 Stack's sale and the Knobloch sale.  So, including yours, that's at least 3 Knobloch Republican coins in that 1989 Stack's sale that we know about.

Thank you, Carausius.  I was checking that Stacks auction literally at closing at the ANS so I didn't even look beyond that page.  I'll need to check it out.  Nice Brutus, BTW!    ;D


Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #160 on: March 20, 2016, 01:02:28 pm »
Curious search tip which I'd better write down here before I forget it: I was scratching my head as to how to search the CNG shop database - as there are no "auction numbers" to narrow the search or tick things off. As a curiosity, I put in "denarius" as a search term. The results surprised me by coming out more or less in Crawford order - with some misplaced coins or series. At least as far as Crawford 220 where I've reached so far. That's very useful to know, as searches on family name could miss a lot of coins. So, search by denomination, and page through the results until you come to the Republican coins. Or "Janus" for the as, which i always use. I decided to do the retails first as they generally are of much higher quality than the e-sales. For the e-sales, search on sale number. Those online start at sale 50 (1-49 are not archived). Search on 50 gives you sale 350,250,150,50 in that order so skip to "last" and you'll find the double digit sale numbers first. Once you hit 100 it's straightforward.

Would a moderator agree to sticky this thread? It's evidently going to last forever but each time I need to search on "catalogue madness" to find it.

Offline carthago

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #161 on: March 21, 2016, 10:38:15 am »
Curious search tip which I'd better write down here before I forget it: I was scratching my head as to how to search the CNG shop database - as there are no "auction numbers" to narrow the search or tick things off. As a curiosity, I put in "denarius" as a search term. The results surprised me by coming out more or less in Crawford order - with some misplaced coins or series. At least as far as Crawford 220 where I've reached so far. That's very useful to know, as searches on family name could miss a lot of coins. So, search by denomination, and page through the results until you come to the Republican coins. Or "Janus" for the as, which i always use. I decided to do the retails first as they generally are of much higher quality than the e-sales. For the e-sales, search on sale number. Those online start at sale 50 (1-49 are not archived). Search on 50 gives you sale 350,250,150,50 in that order so skip to "last" and you'll find the double digit sale numbers first. Once you hit 100 it's straightforward.

Would a moderator agree to sticky this thread? It's evidently going to last forever but each time I need to search on "catalogue madness" to find it.

Thank you for the tip, Andrew.  I found 2 of my coins last night using your "denarius" technique.  Neither extended provenances already known, but it did fill in stops along the way to my trays.  

Offline Carausius

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #162 on: April 12, 2016, 08:05:13 am »
Sometimes it pays to tell a dealer what you are looking for, rather than rely on web shop listings or online searches. Yesterday, I sent my shrinking, old-auction-catalogue want list to someone and it paid-off with the following:

1. Baranowsky (1931)-Traverso/Martini. One of Spring's top struck Republican coin sales, and a bit of a white whale for me. Over the past year, I was outbid in the final minutes for a copy at auction and narrowly missed buying another copy on fixed-price offer.

2. Glendining (1931)-Nordheim/Evans, bound with Naville Ars Classica III (Evans). The first of these two was my real item of interest, and is also on Spring's top struck Republican sales.

Similar writing campaigns in the past have yielded some other difficult-to-find catalogues, including Quadras y Ramon, Schott, Hall etc.

I'm nearing completion of my set of Spring's top auction catalogues of struck Roman Republican coins. Only seven left to go!

Offline carthago

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #163 on: April 19, 2016, 11:26:57 pm »
Got 4 custom bindings back today, one being your recently acquired Baranowsky sale above.  I had a custom die made to mimic the spine on the original sale.  As you know, it's a beautiful catalogue cover, which I preserved as Page 1.

Offline Carausius

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #164 on: April 20, 2016, 07:52:48 am »
 +++ They look fabulous.  I like your leather/marbled board selections. You must be pleased. You'll enjoy the catalogues more without fear of them disintegrating in your hands!

I received my copy of the Baranowsky Traverso-Martini catalogue yesterday, and it will need to be bound soon. As typical (it's a thick catalogue with the text bound in sections different from the plates), the catalogue has split in half at the spine. Internally, it's in good shape.

Offline Carausius

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #165 on: April 29, 2016, 11:18:22 am »
Every few months, I bring a couple of my key old catalogues to my binder. Below are two that I picked-up at my last visit. Both volumes contain Leo Hamburger sales, so I bound them as a matched set. The first is RBW's copy of the Niklovitz Collection (1925), the second is Hamburger Auktions 95 & 96 (1932).  All are bound in theee-quarter, tan English goat with "stone-pattern" hand-marbled boards, raised bands, black leather spine labels and gilt. I don't bind all of my catalogues this elaborately - some are more deserving than others.




Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #166 on: May 11, 2016, 06:48:50 pm »
This is really weird.

Compare
[top] Adolph E. Cahn 80 (27 Feb.1933) lot 548, on acsearch
[below] Andrew's Brutus 504 denarius, which I already recorded as coming from that sale ... but, the weird thing is that I found my record in a Cahn sale where the plate coin looked exactly as mine, with good surfaces. Note that every imperfection on my coin is visible on the Cahn plate coin, and the strike and edge defects are identical. But this Cahn plate coin has a lot more bad things going on - terrible surfaces, scratches that aren't on mine etc. Yet the Cahn 80 plate where I found my coin had the same coin with apparently perfect surfaces (it was in the RBW library and I found it whilst browsing the Kolbe sale).

I'm not sure what happened. Could printing defects cause these surfaces ... or degradation of the plate ... or, perhaps there was more than one version of the plate, where they messed up or damaged the plaster cast. Really weird anyway.

On a side note, as I always like to note new found old provenances here, the below illustrated Critonia denarius, which was close to getting the axe from my collection due to condition, I found today to be ex Kricheldorf 3 (25 Feb.1957) lot 902. The Kricheldorf sale was one of a group of ten that I bought in the recent CNG book sale for a moderate sum (albeit immoderate p&p), so I'm happy with this pot-luck find.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #167 on: May 11, 2016, 07:44:24 pm »
Perhaps it's my memory playing tricks with me, and the auction photo was as bad as this in every copy. I recall recognising my coin in print catalogue and I may have blanked out the terrible photo.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #168 on: May 11, 2016, 08:30:08 pm »
Are you sure yours isn't a cast of the original?

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #169 on: May 11, 2016, 08:57:38 pm »
Or possibly the same coin, but expertly restored in the meantime, including smoothing out of pitting?
Curtis Clay

Offline Carausius

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #170 on: May 11, 2016, 11:14:28 pm »
I'm not sure what happened. Could printing defects cause these surfaces ... or degradation of the plate ... or, perhaps there was more than one version of the plate, where they messed up or damaged the plaster cast. Really weird anyway.

As luck would have it, I just ordered a copy of Cahn 80 earlier this evening! I'll let you know in a week or so whether the plate in my copy looks the same as acsearch's plate.

Meantime, I would guess that the Cahn 80 plate is a bad plaster cast. I can't imagine that Cahn would have bothered making a plaster cast for the plates if the actual coin had such poor surfaces. Does the acsearch entry include the Cahn catalogue description? If the surfaces were so poor, I imagine there would have been mention of them in the description.

Congratulations on the Critonia.

Offline carthago

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #171 on: May 11, 2016, 11:24:56 pm »
the weird thing is that I found my record in a Cahn sale where the plate coin looked exactly as mine, with good surfaces. Note that every imperfection on my coin is visible on the Cahn plate coin, and the strike and edge defects are identical. But this Cahn plate coin has a lot more bad things going on - terrible surfaces, scratches that aren't on mine etc. Yet the Cahn 80 plate where I found my coin had the same coin with apparently perfect surfaces (it was in the RBW library and I found it whilst browsing the Kolbe sale).

I'm not sure what happened. Could printing defects cause these surfaces ... or degradation of the plate ... or, perhaps there was more than one version of the plate, where they messed up or damaged the plaster cast. Really weird anyway.

I just reviewed my hard copy of Cahn 80 and you have to look really close to see the surface issues on the picture, so the picture you posted online looks worse than the original in hand IMHO.  If you were viewing lots in NY, the lights aren't always so great and I would think you could take it for it looking better than it does as a scan (how cool is that though; finding a key provenance while reviewing book lots!).

My guess is that it's a poor plaster cast and your coin is the way it should look. 

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #172 on: May 11, 2016, 11:44:11 pm »
The Cahn description is "sehr schoen" and that was before the years of grade inflation, in other words a very nice coin, of the quality typical for a Cahn sale. The coin has been through several other high end auctions including the 1966 Schulman Graham collection and a Triton sale and has pretty much perfect surfaces apart from the obvious ding in the obverse field and the neck scratch, both which you see on the Cahn plate. With carthagos view of the catalogue in hand it does seem to the case of a terrible plaster cast of a lovely coin. Oddly I bought an EF example of the same type at NYINC this year, and then discovered this terrific provenance for my old coin the next day; a few weeks later I also found the Schulman provenance. Given its provenance, I plan on keeping both coins now.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #173 on: May 12, 2016, 06:11:47 am »
Wolf and twins didrachm: Adolph Cahn 80, 27 Feb. 1933, pics below. My 22nd confirmed pre-war provenance. That's my two year subscription covered with this find.

That's incidentally the same catalogue the Brutus discussed yesterday came from. So I was only 50% successful in the dark lights of the NYINC Kolbe sale, I missed this one. I've also noticed that other plaster casts in the same sale have diabolical surface issues.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #174 on: May 12, 2016, 06:15:14 am »
Why did they make plaster casts back then instead of just photographing the coins?

 

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