When auction buyers don't pay

[esnible]

Many of you remember "The Prospero Collection" auction, sold just over a year ago in NYC for record breaking prices.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2226278/Royal-sheikh-spent-1billion-art-collection-accused-leaving-extraordinary-trail-unpaid-debt-worlds-auction-houses.html

"Saud Bin Mohammed Al-Thani - 'reputedly the world’s largest collector of objets d’art'- is being sued by dealers who say he has dishonoured a pledge to pay $19.7 million for a collection of ancient Greek coins sold at auction in New York in January.

"Saud, 45, 'purchased nearly $20 million worth of coins from the Prospero Collection', regarded as the finest assortment of Archaic, Classical and Hellenistic Greek coins ever assembled, the High Court was told.

"Three dealers - A.H. Baldwin and Sons Ltd, Dmitry Markov, who trades as Dmitry Markov Coins and Medals, and N&M Numismatics LLC - say the sheikh has given no 'explanation or excuse' for his failure to pay, and Mr Gruder said he had left an 'extraordinary trail of unpaid debts'.

"The case reached the High Court as their lawyers urged Mr Justice Haddon-Cave to continue an asset freezing injunction imposed on the sheikh, who is a cousin of the ruling emir of Qatar, on October 9.

[Mark Z]

Es,

Couldn't the auctioneers sell the coins to the second-highest bidder a la eBay's "second chance" offer?

Regards,
mz

[bpmurphy]

There already is quite a long thread on this topic somewhere, started a few months ago.

Barry Murphy

[areich]

There was.

[OldMoney]

There was.

"Was" seems to be correct, the thread has apparently been deleted.

Remaining (closed) thread (probably also soon to be deleted):
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=84800.0

- which indicates it was moved here:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=83943.0

But there is nothing there any more!!!

Just a strange message: "An Error Has Occurred!
The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you."

One MUST ask the obvious question: . . . . . . Why?

I thought this place was meant to have some INTEGRITY!
What happened to honestly and openness? Clearly I was mistaken.

I wonder whether this post, and this thread, will also be deleted.

Walter Holt

[Joe Sermarini]

Threads on the For Sale on eBay and Other sites are deleted when the last post is over 30 days old. 

[carthago]

Couldn't the auctioneers sell the coins to the second-highest bidder a la eBay's "second chance" offer?

I thought that was often practiced when the winning bidder flaked out.  I've had it happen to me where I have won the coin as the under bidder after the sale.  It's been a pleasant surprise!

My guess is that this guy "bought" so many of the coins and pushed the prices up so high in in the live auction madness that the underbidders aren't interested in taking up the lots after the excitement is gone.  Also, many of the underbidders continued bidding on successive lots that they blew past their budget and wouldn't be able to take up the slack.   A sad situation for everyone involved.

One thing that concerns me is the hostile environment that NY presents to business.  The court ruling on enforcing invoices, that outrageous sales tax that they want to enforce on purchases at the event, and the Weiss thing.  Not to mention it's an expensive place to have the event.  If I were part of the organizers on of NYINC, I'd be looking to move the show to someplace more business friendly.  Perhaps Florida so weather isn't a problem either. 

[areich]

Surely not all of the bids that drove the prices so high were genuine bids. In the BCD auction (I don't know if these coins were paid for), prices were ridiculous, even for ugly coins only interesting to a specialty collector.

[Volodya]

Surely not all of the bids that drove the prices so high were genuine bids.

They were all "genuine" bids in the sense that they weren't shill bids. I have no doubt at all that the auction house--Baldwin's and their partners--played it straight. Now, is it possible that some bidders on the floor were playing games with the sheik, bidding humdrum coins to absurd levels because they knew he would match the absurdity?

You bet.

There's no question that some other deep-pocketed players enjoyed burying the sheik in coin after coin, just because they could. They certainly bid way way past the level that they wanted to pay for a particular piece. That's one reason why offering lots to the underbidder, as some here have suggested, isn't feasible in the case of Prospero.

These bidders would have honored their bids if they won though.

Phil Davis

[Andrew McCabe]

I thought that was often practiced when the winning bidder flaked out. \

True, on an occasional basis, but where the winning bidder was bidding strongly on every coin then everyone bids higher to try and at least get a coin or two at in inflated price. So also the second and third bidders were artificially high. When the big bidder doesn't pay, the auction house would love it if an under-bidder then agreed to buy the coins, but I guess the under-bidders were no longer interested at those prices. You can't make the under-bidder buy - once you've been outbid, you have no further obligation.

[Lloyd Taylor]

Threads on the For Sale on eBay and Other sites are deleted when the last post is over 30 days old.  

Thanks for the explanation. I was unaware of the time limit.

I wonder whether this post, and this thread, will also be deleted.

So the answer is yes.  

Also explains why my recorded number of posts drops periodically!

[OldMoney]

Threads on the For Sale on eBay and Other sites are deleted when the last post is over 30 days old.

Thanks for the explanation Joe, but it is bizarre that a discussion of this
nature and, dare-I-say, importance (globally) is arbitrarily deleted from
one section, especially when it was deliberately moved from another.
 _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____  _____

I also think people have to be VERY careful about making allegations of
artificial bidding without PROOF or at least EVIDENCE of such nefarious
practices beyond "I think..." or "I heard..." or "Surely not...". I am not so
naïve as to believe that this sort of thing does not occur, but lets not
throw out these blanket statements without backing it up by something
more than mere rumour, anecdote, speculation and innuendo.

Such nebulous statements can have effects on the wider realms of coin
auctions and sales generally. How so? Well how does a new collector, or
any collector in fact, now KNOW that this statement does not apply to
the otherwise highly scrupulous auctions held at THIS venue? Or to any
number of other highly respected and well known venues beyond the
electronic borders of this site. See what I mean? One CANNOT!

I am not saying it does not happen, or that it cannot happen, just that
this sort of shotgun statement hits everyone, good and bad, innocent
and otherwise, equally. We have to be careful how such statements are
framed, and, perhaps more importantly, how they are directed.

If you have evidence of such matters and can back it up, then I am one
of many who would be happy to hear your story and judge the matter
accordingly. However, I am not partial to unsubstantiated matters being
thrown around wildly, especially when they are couched in a way that
could make them sound as if they apply to any (or all) of the good as
well as the unnamed party/parties about whom they are intended.

If anyone has actual evidence of such matters, then let's hear it - in detail.
I suspect, and expect, that no such thing will be brought forward.

Perhaps this thread, and the previous - now deleted - one, should be
(have been) placed in a better location, and for good reason. These are
important matters that deserve being retained.

Walter Holt

[Joe Sermarini]

Threads on the For Sale on eBay and Other sites are deleted when the last post is over 30 days old.

Thanks for the explanation Joe, but it is bizarre that a discussion of this nature and, dare-I-say, importance (globally) is arbitrarily deleted from
one section, especially when it was deliberately moved from another... Walter Holt

I don't think this topic is very important for the focus of this discussion board, which is classical numismats - specifically the coins themselves, not the coin business.  I will, however, move it to different board so it does not get deleted.

[Lloyd Taylor]

I don't think this topic is very important for the focus of this discussion board, which is classical numismats - specifically the coins themselves, not the coin business.  

Agree.

It makes for a bit of titillating reading but the case has no bearing on on the numismatic trade generally. I dare say the Sheik's defense counsel is looking at all angles to void the liability for payment and will present the evidence in support of their case accordingly. However, the sheik's actions and situation are completely atypical of that of 99.9999999999999% of collectors and bidders and the story around the court case is hardly earth shattering stuff. Rather, it is yet another fool and his money story, but it makes a nice change from more usual discussion board posting "I found this rare authentic coin in grandma's closet, now tell me how much its worth" and the naive, if not feigned follow-up angst and disbelief that grandma had a crappy fake in her possession.

No matter what the outcome of the case it will have zero impact on the trade other than to make one or two auction houses pursue a liitle more diligence in vetting the bona fides and creditworthiness of their big ticket bidders... something they should have been doing anyway!  It is a veritable storm in a teacup, notwithstanding the desperation of the auction house involved in seeking to move the case beyond the original jurisdiction because the latter did not afford them the certainty of recovery that they wanted. But it makes for titillating reading as do most stories of the rich and their folly.

[Salem Alshdaifat]

I for sure think it is sad for the Auction house and wasn't fair or ethical what the Shikh did if it is true what we are hearing , when all dealers where in the auction floor including me last year , we were sad to see one person winning all these amazing wonderful coins, and wondering if these coins will show up in the market again or will end up in Qatar in a dark safe, collecting dust, for one person joy to have them, but not understanding what kind of treasure and history he or they have in that closed cold dusty safe!!!
and honestly sitting in the auctions last year wasn't fun, you see collectors and dealers looking at each other faces, all mad and angry faces, it was a one person show, some dealers including me felt that this will not work well in the end, and we were looking at the Shikh table which was right behind my table , and thinking that this show wont end well , and it is taking the joy and fun off the auction floor , and took away the smile of many collectors.
why did that happen and what is the fun the Shikh gain  but the fun we had this year in NYNIC is the say between us smiling ( Shaikh free auctions this year ).
I don't know why the Shikh did so??? but I say the truth , we had a funny happy NYNIC this year Shikh
Salem Alshdaifat

[South]

So, just a couple of questions on the matter: have the Auction Houses been paid by now? Who owns the unpaid Prospero coins at the moment?

Best,

South

[Andrew McCabe]

So, just a couple of questions on the matter: have the Auction Houses been paid by now? Who owns the unpaid Prospero coins at the moment?

Best,

South

It is odd that you ask this, as your first post on Forum, in thread that hasn't been responded to for one and a half years. Are you an investigative journalist, or just a curious collector, or a curious non-collector? It doesn't read like the typical first posting of a coin collector, and this forum is dedicated to coin collectors, with its focus being about the coins themselves, and not about buying or selling matters.

Perhaps this thread would have been better placed in the "For sale, other venues" area, in which case it would have been deleted after 30 days.

[JBF]

It is an interesting question.
and I do wonder where some of the coins I bid on at Prospero, (very unsuccessfully), went.
I was there for the first part (Magna Graecia), but didn't stick around.

[South]

Hello Andrew Macabe

Just a curious underbidder wanting to know what happened with the whole thing

Best

South

[Andrew McCabe]

The answer may be partly to be found in the following 2014 auction:
http://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?auction=1095&category=22309

Those lots marked as "withdrawn" are, if one checks, all out of Prospero. Perhaps some of the other lots are too. For example, same coin:
http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1178555
http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1826551

My guess is that after the events of two years ago described in this thread, the coins were held by seller awaiting payment, and were then relisted by the same seller for sale in January 2014, which action may have prompted the tardy payer(s) to finally pay their 2012 invoices, perhaps with the addition of penalty interest charges. I've no actual knowledge, but the relisting of the Prospero coins following the widespread stories of them not being paid for, and then withdrawal of only those Prospero coins from the 2014 sale, does suggest this may have been what happened.

[South]

Hello Andrew McCabe

Your info helps explain a lot, I still remained in doubt about the EL 100 litrai coin (lot 100, The New York Sale Auction XXXII), also a Prospero Collection coin that sold quite well.

Anyway, thanks a lot for your comments.

Best,

South

[Alexander K]

Sad news regarding Sheikh - rip

[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

[Meepzorp]

Hi folks,

This is a shocking and interesting development. He was only one year older than me.

Maybe the market will be flooded with his ancient coins soon.

Meepzorp

[JBF]

Meepzorp,
Regarding the market and the possible release of a lot of nice coins,
it is not exactly the polite thing to say,
but I am sure everyone is thinking it.   

[Britannicus]

Regarding the market and the possible release of a lot of nice coins,
it is not exactly the polite thing to say,
but I am sure everyone is thinking it.   

I was thinking it.