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Author Topic: Looking for coin photo with visible layout circles  (Read 1184 times)

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Offline Heliodromus

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Looking for coin photo with visible layout circles
« on: May 27, 2021, 09:29:52 am »
Does this ring a bell with anyone ?

A long time ago I recall seeing a roman coin photo somewhere on the web where the layout circles inscribed on the dies were visible on the coin. There were multiple concentric circles as I recall, for the legend as well as pearl-bead border. It would have looked something like the sketch below.

Ben

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Looking for coin photo with visible layout circles
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2021, 09:39:57 am »
This is either an apprentice engraver or ancient counterfeit, but I think this is what you are looking for.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=156281



Online maridvnvm

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Re: Looking for coin photo with visible layout circles
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2021, 10:25:52 am »
Here is one of mine....


Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Looking for coin photo with visible layout circles
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2021, 01:24:53 pm »
Thanks, guys !

Those are both great examples, although not the one I recall seeing before. Seeing more examples like this does show that multiple engravers were doing this. I suspect circles for the legend may have been fairly common, perhaps typically so faint (or polished off the die?) they didn't show on the coins.

Ben

Online maridvnvm

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Re: Looking for coin photo with visible layout circles
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2021, 01:41:38 pm »
I suspect that they only appear on fresh dies and were eliminated fairly quickly as the die was used.

Here is another.


Online maridvnvm

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Re: Looking for coin photo with visible layout circles
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2021, 01:50:38 pm »
and another


Offline clueless

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Re: Looking for coin photo with visible layout circles
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2021, 01:56:54 pm »
That first SeptSev, is there an omega beneath V in RDVC ? Nice specimen indeed.

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Offline Aeneas

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Re: Looking for coin photo with visible layout circles
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2021, 04:56:15 pm »
Another example, unfortunately not mine...

David

Online maridvnvm

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Re: Looking for coin photo with visible layout circles
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2021, 04:24:24 am »
I don't see many of them on later bronzes but I just spotted this one in my Probus coins.... where is it visible between about 1 o'clock and 2 o'clock on the reverse.

This coin shares another attribute that appears on a few coins that I believe to be related. There are also "scratches" on the field on the reverse, all running in the same direction. These scratches are also visible on the first two denarii I posted. I believe that these are the results of the die preparation process and again might only appear on coins struck from fresh dies. My supposition is that just after the engraving of the detail is complete there are small burrs of metal on the die. To remove these the engraver takes a file to the die to remove them leaving small scratches in the process which are eliminated from the die during use and only appear when the die is fresh. It has been suggested that these were done to potentially remove rust from an unused die being brought into use, which is also possible but given the occurrence of both the engraving circle and the scratches on these three examples I suspect that it was just part of the standard die preparation process.



Regards,
Martin

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Looking for coin photo with visible layout circles
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2021, 07:35:06 am »
Quote from: Aeneas on June 02, 2021, 04:56:15 pm
Another example, unfortunately not mine...

Thanks! Great coin though - never seen that type before.

Ben

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Looking for coin photo with visible layout circles
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2021, 07:44:06 am »
Quote
This coin shares another attribute that appears on a few coins that I believe to be related. There are also "scratches" on the field on the reverse, all running in the same direction. These scratches are also visible on the first two denarii I posted. I believe that these are the results of the die preparation process and again might only appear on coins struck from fresh dies.

Thanks, Martin!

I've often wondered about these unidirectional scratches. I think you must be right. These certainly look like fresh dies.

Perhaps they also cleaned up worn dies if they were rusty or reworked, but your coin is great proof that this was also done as part of normal initial die creation.

Ben

Offline Nemonater

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Re: Looking for coin photo with visible layout circles
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2021, 10:35:27 am »
I find you tend to see the circles on Flavian denarii from Antioch and Ephesus more so than from Rome.  I've always thought the striations, as seen on the reverse of the shekel, were from a freshly made die.

Offline Mat

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Re: Looking for coin photo with visible layout circles
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2021, 11:12:49 am »
I have one that's pretty significant.

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Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Looking for coin photo with visible layout circles
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2021, 11:35:36 am »
Great examples - thanks!

Does anyone have a tetrarchy/later example, perhaps?

That engraver looks like he could use all the help he could get, Mat, and it still wasn't enough!

Ben

Offline romeman

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Re: Looking for coin photo with visible layout circles
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2021, 06:13:17 pm »
Here is a later one, of Constantine I. I use the term compass circle for it since the ones I had seen when I wrote the paper (before all the ones posted here) were clearly created with a compass.

This is figure 29 in my recent paper on the SPES PVBLIC coins of Constantine (A treatise on Constantine’s SPES PVBLIC coins, with notes on the Chi-Rho, the staurogram, and the early bronze coinage of Constantinopolis (2020: Lars Ramskold, Jahrbuch für Numismatik und Geldgeschichte, vol. 69-70, pp. 201-360, with 59 Figures), see https://independent.academia.edu/LarsRamskold


Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Looking for coin photo with visible layout circles
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2021, 07:34:23 am »
Thanks, Lars!

That's an interesting one - with the legend area demarcated, but the bust engraver still intentionally encroaching into it for a full-sized bust.

Which of these is making you rethink the "compass circle" idea ? At a glance these all seem to be centered on same point (center of PRD), no ?

Ben

Offline romeman

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Re: Looking for coin photo with visible layout circles
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2021, 08:28:50 am »
Dear Ben,

The Sept Severus rev looked oval at first, but now that I measure the circle I get – on the photo -  62mm x 63mm, so perhaps a slight tilt of the coin during photography. The other was the Probus FIDES, where only a small part of the circle is visible, to the right, and it looks too straight. Maybe just an artefact, maybe a scratch on the die not a compass circle, who knows.

After going through the coins figured here I am in fact even more convinced that a compass was used. The main purpose would be to mark the size and position of the pearl border. And clearly it was not uncommon to add one or more circles to indicate the space for the legend.

One might note that all examples except mine are of silver coins. In bronze, the surface in only rarely preserved well enough for the preservation of weak features like this.

All in all, a small piece of information about how the engravers worked. Neat.

/Lars

Offline SRukke

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Re: Looking for coin photo with visible layout circles
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2021, 01:31:54 am »

 

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